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The tablet and intelligent phone generation kids experience something we, old timers never did.
They are constantly over fed with mass communication and not necessarily relevant or accurate one.
No longer people need to train their memory or to know facts because these information are available under a couple clicks. Years of SMS writing, calculators and computers doing the job is not helping their brain to develop basic skills.
Span of attention is very poor and ineffective multitasking is everywhere.
I would not like to be a school teacher nowadays having to compete for attention and interest with the net...
Lowest denominator is a consequence of that situation.
Omer Simpson was right, if something is too difficult...it is not worth doing it; must be fast and easy!
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08-06-2014 06:50 PM
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Hey, if the kids could play jazz a bit by the time they graduated high school maybe they could major in something useful, like business.
Assuming they pass remedial English, after being taught by those overpaid, not so bright education majors.
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Anyone who blames the woes of public education on the teachers should be ashamed of themselves.
A friend of mine spent 7 years as a grade school teacher for CPS. She was excellent. Towards the end of her first year there, she wrote a letter to the Tribune talking about buying presents and other necessities for her kids, spending money out-of-her own meager pocket (a common phenomena, yes), basically asking for more resources for schools.
Paul Vallas (who was Arne Duncan before Arne Duncan) got wind of it and was concerned that it made CPS look bad. Thankfully, they were not able to fire my friend, because ALL of the parents at the school stood up for her.
Just recently, my friend who taught drama at a Northwest side school (Blago's and Rahm's congressional district) just got laid off==layoffs are a very common tactic, now, forcing everyone to reapply every year, no seniority, no tenure, keep pay low. She is an incredible teacher, her mentor and all the kids loved this class, it gave them untold confidence, among other valuable lessons.
But no drama no art, no music for CPS. Nope.
By the way, Paul Vallas is now running for Lt. Governor. Take a look at what he did running New Orleans schools. They've all been privatized, gutted, and charter schooled. Which means people who are in the know line their pockets with contracts, standards go out the window, and certainly no arts, no music, no drama for the kids.
Insert Plato quote here: “I would teach children music, physics, and philosophy; but most importantly music, for the patterns in music and all the arts are the keys to learning”
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So, are you saying that anyone who blames ANY of the woes of public education on ANY teachers should be ashamed of themselves? Or, are you saying anyone who blames ALL of the woes of public education on ALL teaches should be ashamed of themselves? Big difference!! Because if you believe that some of the poor excuses for human beings that are currently being employed as teachers ( and protected by unions and tenure from being removed) have no effect and should be free of any accountability for what's wrong with our public schools . . . you need to do more to keep yourself up to date with the current times. Originally Posted by NSJ
You sighted one example of one very wonderful and caring teacher/person. I'm sure that we all wish that each and every teacher was a carbon copy of her. Unfortunately, that's not the reality of the situation.
Generalizations either way, for good or bad are just totally obtuse. No one here blamed all teachers for the woes of public schools. Likewise, no one should absolve all teachers from bearing any of the fault of those woes.
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[QUOTE=mr. beaumont;449469]Hey, if the kids could play jazz a bit by the time they graduated high school maybe they could major in something useful, like business.
Ya gotta let go of that man. It's already history. Shake it off.Assuming they pass remedial English, after being taught by those overpaid, not so bright education majors.
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Nope. Nobody else has to come here and hear their profession indicted in that manner. Fuck it, I offered a possible way to get young people interested in jazz, and I get reminded that I'm not doing my job.
Screw that. I'll just back off now until I cool off.
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Originally Posted by SuperFour00
Hahahaha.
this thread went dead for about a week and then this post came along. Paragraphs 1, 2 and 4 are spot on. Bravo! But paragraph 3 is "Out To Lunch" (hat tip to Eric Dolphy).
here's a consideration for you -
jazz music is not classical, has never wanted to be, and never will be. It is a casual music, it is a folk music, it is
an improvised, ad-lib music. Hell man, let it be what it insists on being, and what it is!
once the race card was dropped, the whole thing went to shit. Thanks super 4.Last edited by fumblefingers; 08-06-2014 at 11:43 PM.
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I am the walrus. Originally Posted by fumblefingers
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and by the way - i really admire and respect Henry Robinett.
i just have a respectful disagreement with HR about the definition of racism. i don't buy all the qualifiers that are put on the definition in the good old USA (and wonder who put them there... another subject for another day).
i think that any race who opposes, resents, mistrusts, or hates another race (regardless of history, culture, class, religion, politics, etc.)... is engaged in racism.
no need to over-think it. its pretty darned simple, and pretty darned base, IMO.Last edited by fumblefingers; 08-07-2014 at 12:43 AM.
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You're right, of course. That is an important distinction. I'll quickly clarify, though, that racism by definition is based on the perception of "race". Discrimination can be based on age, gender, sexual orientation, religion, social position, net worth, and so on. Racism and discrimination don't always exist at the same locus. Originally Posted by jbyork
When one group or faction is treated differently by any authority or power, vs another nearly identical group or faction, it behooves the alert and concerned observer to consider the possible reasons.
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Has country music had more success than jazz in maintaining its popularity and mass-media presence?
I think that (alterntive) folk music---e.g. Susan Vega, Tracie Chapman in my youth---has had success in having crossover appeal with indie rock.
It might be interesting to explore why jazz has struggled more....
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Thank you. I was not aware that there was such a long list. I would have thought that most great players would have been on that road before they got to high school. I suppose I should re-evaluate my position on the issue. Originally Posted by paulkogut
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Originally Posted by Kiefer.Wolfowitz
i wonder if it's because they're so dumb and taste challenged that they don't perceive that they have other choices.
but probably not.
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First, Jeff, you really should know that just because----according to you----Chicago schools no longer have band programs, it doesn't mean the rest of country's public schools have no band programs. They do. As Casey Stengel said, "You could look it up." There are marching bands, jazz bands, drum and bugle corps, color guards. There are after-school bands too. Thousands of them. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
That you don't think it important for high school graduates to know how to read well speaks ill of you as a teacher. You really should read "Why Johnny Can't Read." (And the encore, decades later, "Why Johnny STILL Can't Read.")
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[QUOTE=Kiefer.Wolfowitz;449547]Has country music had more success than jazz in maintaining its popularity and mass-media presence?
I think that (alterntive) folk music---e.g. Susan Vega, Tracie Chapman in my youth---has had success in having crossover appeal with indie rock.
I think that's what the last ump-teen posts have been doing. Is it not?It might be interesting to explore why jazz has struggled more....
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I think it's one thing to discuss how race may have, or may not have played a role in the deterioration of a focus on jazz and jazz studies, which is appropriate as discussion here. But, if we allow this discussion to turn into a general debate over the definitions of racism and/or racial discrimination . . . or the causes and effects of racism and racial discrimination on all things here in the USA, it's gonna get real ugly real fast . . . as demonstrated by henryrobinett's open excoriation of me on my stated opinions and reply to SuperFour's first post on his assessment of how race played such a role. Originally Posted by jbyork
As difficult as it may be . . we'd probably be better off trying our best to seperate these two discussions from one and other . . even though they may tend to intertwine.
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Discussions of the US educational system and racism do not address why jazz has faded more than folk and country music. Originally Posted by Patrick2
I think that's what the last ump-teen posts have been doing. Is it not? Originally Posted by Kiefer.Wolfowitz
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Discussions of country and folk guitarists elsewhere on this forum suggest that your dismissal is a minority opinion. Originally Posted by fumblefingers
Do you really think that admirers of Chet Atkins such as Tommy Emmanuel and Lenny Breau have lacked your intelligence and taste?
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Mark,
Are you serious? Maybe my public education has failed me, but in reading any of Jeff's posts, I can't comprehend where you'd get that he doesn't care about high school graduates learning to read. Maybe I got distracted by your cheap shot at him, that going into education is the refuge of the not too bright.
It seems to be his position, (and mine, too) that teaching basic art and cultural literacy in the classroom is something worth advocating for.
Again, a quick google will link you to any number of studies that show kids involved in music do better in other subjects as a result, and I don't think it's coincidental that the US cities (NYC, Philly, Houston) with arts high schools also have good audiences for art and music.
It's funny, I was on facebook the other day, where all us professional jazz musicians hang out, and the subject of this forum came up. We all concurred that Jeff is by far the best asset this place has. He has a gift for distilling down how someone might practice jazz as a hobby without dedicating their whole life to it, but without selling the artform short or resorting to 'no modes! no scales!' hucksterism.
I'm really sorry to see that as a forum member, after all Jeff has contributed, that you would conclude he doesn't care about kids learning to read, and I'm even sorrier that, as a forum moderator, you would post your conclusion. I think I'll join Jeff for that cooling off break from the forum that this thread has inspired.
PK
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Maybe I am wrong, but my guess is that Jeff was being sarcastic as a reaction to critics targeted to his profession and was wrongly interpreted as carelessness
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I think you're wrong regarding the educational system. And I suggest your definition of folk music is fundamentally flawed. While most academics will define Folk Music as the traditional music of any ethnicity or culture, I'll grant that colloquially, the term Folk Music has come to mean the traditional music of the late 19th and early 20th century America (and arguably Canada), and revivals of such styles, including music that evolved from it. At a certain point, newer styles, like Rock a Billy, Rock n Roll, Urban Blues, Country, and Western get their own classification and separate set of definitions. If you propose that modern Rock or Pop featuring an acoustic guitar, such as Tracy Chapman (or Hootie and the Blowfish) and other similar sub-genres represent Folk Music, I would argue against that position. Originally Posted by Kiefer.Wolfowitz
When you say Jazz has faded more than Folk and Country Music, I'm inclined, contrary to earlier posts of yours perhaps, to consider Pete Seeger, Woody Guthrie, Appalachian music, Cajun music and some of the Pop artists inspired by Folk Music, such as Leonard Cohen, New Christy Minstrels, Peter, Paul and Mary, etc. as examples of Folk Music. The most successful era for most of this revival was the late 50s and early 60s. I think Jazz, while Big Band music was fading, still had a presence in American Pop music, movie and TV scores, and was a respected, if not ubiquitous genre, in it's own right, at least though the same period of time. Perhaps it faded somewhat more prematurely than modern Folk Music, but that music was already evolving well past it's more earthy roots.
Certainly, Country music has captured an enormous market through most of the 20th century. No argument there. Why is Jazz less popular? I addressed that in my first post ... I believe the generations that were touched deeply by Jazz have simply died off. Jazz is becoming extinct. Why haven't subsequent generations carried the ball? Well, I think it's a combination of media influences (the media doesn't necessarily always follow popular trends ... with the advent of Radio and TV, the media has created fads, and trends), the logistics of Jazz venues vs Rock and Pop concert venues, and distractions like multiple television channels ... many kids almost literally raised by TV starting in the 60s.
The culture of America changed because of, among other things, media influences, precipitated by huge technological leaps (color TV, transistor radios, cassette tape, and ultimately, digital electronics). Jazz, IMO, was shuffled into an area already occupied by Classical Music. These are styles that may have ancestors among the various Folk Music of different cultures, but both genres have evolved beyond their roots. Jazz and Classical music, and their sub-genres, have intrinsic value, historically and artistically. They should no longer depend on popularity among the hoi polloi for their existence. It's the duty of our Society to maintain and sustain both Classical Music and Jazz, regardless of their financial viability or popularity. This is done in two ways: education and subsidy.
Education for Jazz is the means to implant the music in the minds of new generations. Grants and also private support are ways to ensure the artists who create and define these arts are able to continue their valuable work.
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It was in jest. Originally Posted by Kiefer.Wolfowitz
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… because Jazz has evolved into an art music. The whole point of jazz is to take the music to another level, not to stand still … process not product etc etc ... Originally Posted by SuperFour00
Last edited by Bill C; 08-07-2014 at 02:15 PM.
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Originally Posted by SuperFour00
Maintain and sustain has a third way as well - commercial support. For profit jazz clubs and festivals still exist. This is one barrier to the subsidy option, and was discussed in that School for Cool book, referenced in another thread.
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If there was a will among the government committees and private sector philanthropists to more fully support Jazz, there would be solutions proffered by them, perhaps in conjunction with the faltering Musicians Unions, or maybe something as simple as tax credits for the venues that promote Jazz. Originally Posted by fumblefingers
Classical musicans work commercially, too, on film scores, for example, and often on recording projects for commercial artists.
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