John McLaughlin on the state of the music business

[Patrick2]

Well, there you have it, if kids want to be mechanics they can take auto shop in high school; if they want to be athletes, gym is offered all through school, but the history and appreciation of Classical Music and Jazz, they can pick that up in the streets ... that's how unimportant it is. Just wow.

It's unimportant to the extent that it's commong knowledge . . especially to those having the reponosibility of doing their best to help provide these kids a way to earn in the real life after school has been completed. How much is a kid gonna earn after learning jazz in grade schools and high schools? So, yeah . . that's how unimportant it is when school admins don't have unlimited budgets.

It sucks . . I'm with you on that. But, that's reality. Should a school direct funds towards auto mechanics, which can and does provide a real opportunity to earn enough to support a family's modest life style? Or should they take away the auto mechanics class in favor of a jazz related class . . where there's been little to no opportunites for quite a few years now?

[SuperFour00]

You clearly did very little thinking. Nothing I said requires data. Your demand for it is vacuous. Clearly you should have spent less time in jazz class and more time with rhetoric.

Are you aware of the names of famous musicians who play Jazz who in fact benefited from a formal music education? Because if not, your statement: "The reality is that it is the rare great musician indeed who became great because his high school gave him access to a trombone and taught him to play Night Train in the stage band" is meaningless. That is, either you know which well known players were taught music at school and can identify them, or you don't know what you're talking about.

[Patrick2]

Well, thats just plain insulting. To me and other teachers.

Yeah . . low blow. I'm going to instruct each of the 3 judges to deduct one point from Mark's score card for that one.

[mr. beaumont]

Many schools have cut auto and wood shop too. And not necessarily because the principal didn't see value in it.

[ColinO]

Are you aware of the names of famous musicians who play Jazz who in fact benefited from a formal music education? Because if not, your statement: "The reality is that it is the rare great musician indeed who became great because his high school gave him access to a trombone and taught him to play Night Train in the stage band" is meaningless. That is, either you know which well known players were taught music at school and can identify them, or you don't know what you're talking about.

The implication of my statement was that I doubt that there are many great jazz musicians that are great jazz musicians as a result of having taken music classes in high school. Do you disagree with that?

You are the one looking for funding. Perhaps it should be up to you to justify it?

[Patrick2]

I doubt education has quality control issues because of the ignorance of teachers or the standards set by the authorities and there appointees. I gather it's because many of the students are spending more time texting and watching videos on their smart phones than studying ... in other words, school doesn't work very well unless reinforced by parents and it works even worse in the absence of sufficient discipline.

If you are of the opinion that public education does not work, what is the alternative?

In the 70s, I taught at a summer "inner-city" Jazz program. Some of the students were in gangs, some were functionally illiterate. Most of them learned to play an instrument, some got pretty good, and a couple got famous. You don't give up on kids because the going gets rough.

Well now . . *some* would argue that possibly not ignorance but incompetence and lack of concern by some, possibly many teachers is indeed contributing to the poor levels of educations. Please don't skip over the words *some* and *contributing*. Because IMO there are many more good and caring teachers than there are ones who need to be fired. But there are indeed those who need to be fired . . and possibly jailed. But, then we've got the whole union and tenure issues . . which could easily turn into another shit storm type debate.

If you're looking for the reasons why public education doesn't work well . . . there are many of those reasons out there easy to identify. But, for political reasons those who could fix it are scared to death of upsetting their constituents by attacking those problems openly and head on.

[vinlander]

The $y$tem is requiring that something to be valuable must be profitable, that also apply to teaching what will generate future incomes for the $y$tem to always renew itself. School have no choice to follow the $y$tem...
Art is not profitable unless it is marketable by the $y$tem
School must taught children to be good part of the $y$tem, resistance is futile...

[SuperFour00]

The implication of my statement was that I doubt that there are many great jazz musicians that are great jazz musicians as a result of having taken music classes in high school. Do you disagree with that?

You are the one looking for funding. Perhaps it should be up to you to justify it?

Wait a minute ... your statement contained an implication? Do you mean I shouldn't take it exactly literally? So when I asked a question, should I have expected you to take it literally and be a smart-ass, or should I have expected you to understand my implication and answer sincerely?

Well, here's what I expect ... that you don't have any idea which Jazz notables have had a music education courtesy of the education system and which haven't. You should look the information up if you intend to use it in an argument, then you could support your opinion.

[Patrick2]

Many schools have cut auto and wood shop too. And not necessarily because the principal didn't see value in it.

Yeah . . if the budget requires a school to decide between R, R & R and auto mechanics/wood shop . . . guess who's gonna win out on that one.

The school system is just one more example of a problem that's endemic to a bloated government trying to run something they're incapable of. Public schools, IRS, EPA, Social Security, USPS, Medicaid - Medicare, ACA, The VA Administration. The list goes on and on. When "systems" such as these are broken, too many elected law makers just want to continue to throw more money at it . . . and with no constrains in sight on how much money law makers can borrow to throw at these problems as an attempt to appease the voting populous we'll never see that change. I believe we'd all be shocked and amazed at what we'd see accomplished if law makers had term limits and could make the intellegent decisions they need to make without the fear of pissing off their constituents and risking not getting elected to their 20th term in office.

[ColinO]

Wait a minute ... your statement contained an implication? Do you mean I shouldn't take it exactly literally? So when I asked a question, should I have expected you to take it literally and be a smart-ass, or should I have expected you to understand my implication and answer sincerely?

Well, here's what I expect ... that you don't have any idea which Jazz notables have had a music education courtesy of the education system and which haven't. You should look the information up if you intend to use it in an argument, then you could support your opinion.

Actually the meaning of my statement was crystal clear. The fact that you were incapable of understanding it is an indictment of your ability to understand English and militates in favour of more funding for basic literacy skills over jazz history.

That being said, your requirement that I know which jazz notables had become great as the result of what they learned in high school music classes in order to suggest that the jazz greats did not, is bizarre and may be a symptom more than a position. I know of none. Do you?

[SuperFour00]

Actually the meaning of my statement was crystal clear. The fact that you were incapable of understanding it is an indictment of your ability to understand English and militates in favour of more funding for basic literacy skills over jazz history.

That being said, your requirement that I know which jazz notables had become great as the result of what they learned in high school music classes in order to suggest that the jazz greats did not, is bizarre and may be a symptom more than a position. I know of none. Do you?

I only require it (I really don't expect it) if you intend to use it as a point of debate. You brought it up. As you know nothing of what you were claiming regarding the educational background of famous Jazz musicians, I'll consider that part of your post irrelevant.

[ColinO]

I only require it (I really don't expect it) if you intend to use it as a point of debate. You brought it up. As you know nothing of what you were claiming regarding the educational background of famous Jazz musicians, I'll consider that part of your post irrelevant.

I said that I doubt that great jazz musicians became great as a result of what they learned in high school. If that is wrong, I stand to be corrected. Do you seriously take issue with that?

[SuperFour00]

I said that I doubt that great jazz musicians became great as a result of what they learned in high school. If that is wrong, I stand to be corrected. Do you seriously take issue with that?

I simply doubt you know anything about what any great Jazz musicians learned in High School.

[ColinO]

I simply doubt you know anything about what any great Jazz musicians learned in High School.

So you agree with what I said, you just don't think I have a basis for saying it? As I said...bizarre.

[SuperFour00]

ColinO,

I don't think I need to agree that you doubt, right? I'll take that at face value. Now, why you doubt, and specifically what you doubt, that would be the essence of your statement if it had any meaning. Until you say what you're basing your uncertainty and suspicion on, if anything, you haven't established any authority from which to argue, so no reason to suspect that you know what you're talking about regarding Jazz players and any information about them pertinent to music education.

I sort of sense that you would like to high-jack JensL's thread with the intention of amusing yourself, possibly because you want someone to give you much needed attention, but you don't seem know anything about the subject of the thread and have nothing valuable to contribute yet. In light of that conclusion, and since I'm more interested in the music business and music education than in your cry for attention, I regrettably have to politely but firmly ignore you from this moment. I'll miss you, but you're distracting from the thread and sometimes we just have to make a clean break. I know it hurts, but we'll both get over it soon if we do it quickly, like ripping the duct tape off a hostage's mouth. A fond goodbye.

[Patrick2]

ColinO,

I don't think I need to agree that you doubt, right? I'll take that at face value. Now, why you doubt, and specifically what you doubt, that would be the essence of your statement if it had any meaning. Until you say what you're basing your uncertainty and suspicion on, if anything, you haven't established any authority from which to argue, so no reason to suspect that you know what you're talking about regarding Jazz players and any information about them pertinent to music education.

I sort of sense that you would like to high-jack JensL's thread with the intention of amusing yourself, possibly because you want someone to give you much needed attention, but you don't seem know anything about the subject of the thread and have nothing valuable to contribute yet. In light of that conclusion, and since I'm more interested in the music business and music education than in your cry for attention, I regrettably have to politely but firmly ignore you from this moment. I'll miss you, but you're distracting from the thread and sometimes we just have to make a clean break. I know it hurts, but we'll both get over it soon if we do it quickly, like ripping the duct tape off a hostage's mouth. A fond goodbye.

OK . . so this has got to qualify as post of the day! Man . . that was smooth and mellow. I'm thinking you just got done sipping one or more nice smooth Hennesy XOs .. maybe a hit or two on a nice Cuban Cohiba . . and are feeling totally relaxed and mellow . . . disallowing any one or any thing to ruin it for you.

Hmmm . . . that sounds like a great course of events for later this evening! Thanks for the suggestion, SuperFour.

[SuperFour00]

OK . . so this has got to qualify as post of the day! Man . . that was smooth and mellow. I'm thinking you just got done sipping one or more nice smooth Hennesy XOs .. maybe a hit or two on a nice Cuban Cohiba . . and are feeling totally relaxed and mellow . . . disallowing any one or any thing to ruin it for you.

Hmmm . . . that sounds like a great course of events for later this evening! Thanks for the suggestion, SuperFour.

I wasn't addressing you, I was addressing ColinO ... we had a short tempestuous relationship. Too short, too tempestuous. He wanted to break my spirit, but instead, he broke my heart. I wanted to ask him if he ever choked anyone with a plain "G" string, (not that I think he did), but he kept trying to twist it around and imply that I meant "G String" the jock-strap, not "G" string, the brass colored Thomastik-Infeld variety. .020 plain, if you must know. He just wouldn't give me a straight answer ... he simply couldn't get his mind off that jock strap. I had to break it off, I had no choice. Woe is me.

[MarkRhodes]

Well, there you have it, if kids want to be mechanics they can take auto shop in high school; if they want to be athletes, gym is offered all through school, but the history and appreciation of Classical Music and Jazz, they can pick that up in the streets ... that's how unimportant it is. Just wow.

They don't teach philosophy in high school either and it's more important than jazz. The primary purpose of public education is to teach what is necessary to discharge one's duties as a citizen. That involves reading and writing, for starters. And the schools are doing a poor job of that.

[SuperFour00]

They don't teach philosophy in high school either and it's more important than jazz. The primary purpose of public education is to teach what is necessary to discharge one's duties as a citizen. That involves reading and writing, for starters. And the schools are doing a poor job of that.

Eat the rich.

[paulkogut]

I thought this was well known jazz history, but off the top of my head here are some high school orchestra to jazz musician success stories.


Captain Walter Dyett's DuSable program (Gene Ammons, Nat Cole, Johnny Griffin, Von Freeman, Richard Davis, etc Walter Dyett - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Elwood Buchannan's East Saint Louis program (Miles, Clark Terry) Elwood Buchanan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The Cass Tech Detroit scene of the early 50's, the school orchestra had Paul Chambers, Kirk Lightsey, Kenny Burrell, and one of my early mentors, Dave Kelton

Chicago's Austin High scene of the 1920's


LaGuardia high school of the arts, way to many to list but Bobby Broom, Eddie Gomez and Kenny Drew are a good start. List of Fiorello H. LaGuardia High School alumni - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




Hall High in Connecticut, with Brad Meldhau and Joel Frahm


HPVA Houston, Mike Moreno, Jason Moran, Robert Glasper, Kendrick Scott
High School for the Performing and Visual Arts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Also, statistics and common sense both point toward the fact that kids who are engaged in music tend to do better in other subjects, stay off the streets and out of trouble, etc, The Benefits of Music Education . Music & Arts . Education | PBS Parents




It seems to me that music, and arts in general, in public education is something worth advocating for.


PK

[SuperFour00]

I thought this was well known jazz history, but off the top of my head here are some high school orchestra to jazz musician success stories.


Captain Walter Dyett's DuSable program (Gene Ammons, Nat Cole, Johnny Griffin, Von Freeman, Richard Davis, etc Walter Dyett - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Elwood Buchannan's East Saint Louis program (Miles, Clark Terry) Elwood Buchanan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The Cass Tech Detroit scene of the early 50's, the school orchestra had Paul Chambers, Kirk Lightsey, Kenny Burrell, and one of my early mentors, Dave Kelton

Chicago's Austin High scene of the 1920's


LaGuardia high school of the arts, way to many to list but Bobby Broom, Eddie Gomez and Kenny Drew are a good start. List of Fiorello H. LaGuardia High School alumni - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




Hall High in Connecticut, with Brad Meldhau and Joel Frahm


HPVA Houston, Mike Moreno, Jason Moran, Robert Glasper, Kendrick Scott
High School for the Performing and Visual Arts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Also, statistics and common sense both point toward the fact that kids who are engaged in music tend to do better in other subjects, stay off the streets and out of trouble, etc, The Benefits of Music Education . Music & Arts . Education | PBS Parents




It seems to me that music, and arts in general, in public education is something worth advocating for.


PK

Thank you. Thank you so much. I don't how to thank you for all that. (sniffle)

Take that, ColinO. And I want my records back, especially the Carly Simon records.

[Patrick2]

I wasn't addressing you, I was addressing ColinO ... we had a short tempestuous relationship. Too short, too tempestuous. He wanted to break my spirit, but instead, he broke my heart. I wanted to ask him if he ever choked anyone with a plain "G" string, (not that I think he did), but he kept trying to twist it around and imply that I meant "G String" the jock-strap, not "G" string, the brass colored Thomastik-Infeld variety. .020 plain, if you must know. He just wouldn't give me a straight answer ... he simply couldn't get his mind off that jock strap. I had to break it off, I had no choice. Woe is me.

Oh, make no mistake. I knew who it was aimed at. I just had to compliment the cool calm and collect temperment. For a while there, I though that I was the only one capable of being tactful and diplomatic.

[mr. beaumont]

I thought this was well known jazz history, but off the top of my head here are some high school orchestra to jazz musician success stories.


Captain Walter Dyett's DuSable program (Gene Ammons, Nat Cole, Johnny Griffin, Von Freeman, Richard Davis, etc Walter Dyett - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Elwood Buchannan's East Saint Louis program (Miles, Clark Terry) Elwood Buchanan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The Cass Tech Detroit scene of the early 50's, the school orchestra had Paul Chambers, Kirk Lightsey, Kenny Burrell, and one of my early mentors, Dave Kelton

Chicago's Austin High scene of the 1920's


LaGuardia high school of the arts, way to many to list but Bobby Broom, Eddie Gomez and Kenny Drew are a good start. List of Fiorello H. LaGuardia High School alumni - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




Hall High in Connecticut, with Brad Meldhau and Joel Frahm


HPVA Houston, Mike Moreno, Jason Moran, Robert Glasper, Kendrick Scott
High School for the Performing and Visual Arts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Also, statistics and common sense both point toward the fact that kids who are engaged in music tend to do better in other subjects, stay off the streets and out of trouble, etc, The Benefits of Music Education . Music & Arts . Education | PBS Parents




It seems to me that music, and arts in general, in public education is something worth advocating for.


PK

Damn those pesky facts! Too bad their not so bright teachers couldn't learn 'em to read and write gooder.

[djangoles]

I thought this was well known jazz history, but off the top of my head here are some high school orchestra to jazz musician success stories.


Captain Walter Dyett's DuSable program (Gene Ammons, Nat Cole, Johnny Griffin, Von Freeman, Richard Davis, etc Walter Dyett - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Elwood Buchannan's East Saint Louis program (Miles, Clark Terry) Elwood Buchanan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The Cass Tech Detroit scene of the early 50's, the school orchestra had Paul Chambers, Kirk Lightsey, Kenny Burrell, and one of my early mentors, Dave Kelton

Chicago's Austin High scene of the 1920's


LaGuardia high school of the arts, way to many to list but Bobby Broom, Eddie Gomez and Kenny Drew are a good start. List of Fiorello H. LaGuardia High School alumni - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




Hall High in Connecticut, with Brad Meldhau and Joel Frahm


HPVA Houston, Mike Moreno, Jason Moran, Robert Glasper, Kendrick Scott
High School for the Performing and Visual Arts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Also, statistics and common sense both point toward the fact that kids who are engaged in music tend to do better in other subjects, stay off the streets and out of trouble, etc, The Benefits of Music Education . Music & Arts . Education | PBS Parents




It seems to me that music, and arts in general, in public education is something worth advocating for.


PK

also this.....

Joey DeFrancesco, Christian McBride, Kurt Rosenwinkel, Questlove

Philadelphia High School for the Creative and Performing Arts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[MarkRhodes]

Damn those pesky facts! Too bad their not so bright teachers couldn't learn 'em to read and write gooder.

These facts were known to me. I assumed most people (at least 35 or older) knew them. (How could anyone who has read a dozen jazz biographies NOT know much of this?) Teaching music in New Orleans public schools is a very big deal to this day. It is in every school system where school administrators value it.

But let's not kid ourselves: all public schools teach four years of English, yet most high school graduates cannot follow the argument of an op-ed in their local paper. They all teach algebra but almost no one on graduation day recalls a bit of it.

That some great musicians went to schools that had a music class no more means that if we have more music classes we will have more jazz giants than teaching Shakespeare and Homer to high school kids means will have more great poets. (We know this because we keep teaching Shakespeare to high school students and their poetry is not improving.)

Does no one who argues for more emphasis on jazz in public school realize that we have about 2,000 jazz musicians for every available gig as it is, and our music schools are full???