John McLaughlin on the state of the music business

[MarkRhodes]

Discussions of the US educational system and racism do not address why jazz has faded more than folk and country music.

I agree. Nor do they explain the great popularity of non-jazz music by African-American performers.

[SuperFour00]

I agree. Nor do they explain the great popularity of non-jazz music by African-American performers.

How would "Discussions of the US educational system and racism ..." explain the popularity of anything? When were such discussions purported to do as much?

[vinlander]

As a simple rule, people like what they know and understand.
Jazz was popular when people could dance on it and that was Swing era.
If one can't whistle giant steps in the shower chances are it will never be quite popular...
Pop, country, rock, folk even blues are music style people understand.
Jazz is too cerebral music for the common folk and no longer an expression mean for breaking rules anymore...

[woland]

(Culturally) embracing stupidity would be something like choosing Football over Music and Arts...it happens all over this country every year.

For all the nonsense about Football and Sports in general being good for teaching a youth about teamwork, discipline, setting goals, camaraderie, etc...

Football is potty training for military. And military is why lower classes are there - desperate enough to join and be sent to some desert country so that military industry and suppliers can rob taxpayers again and again and again. Music that does not make people violent but thoughtful is of NO VALUE to corporate fascist state. Culture that runs on profit will always result in dumb masses since it is much more profitable to create inferior product and market it to larger audience. Mass culture is mired with pure escapism and shock factor and it will only get worse.
State may be a great equalizer - eg. socialist countries achieved universal access and appreciation of "high culture". There was a time and place when kids watched Shakespeare plays on TV, went to Saturday kids' shows played by local symphonic orchestra. When going to opera, theater or ballet was a normal thing for people of all levels of income. And yes - jazz was popular music among high school kids.
Then "democracy" came in and the same kids became consumers = dumping ground for WORTHLESS forms of musical "culture" - gangsta rap, death metal and all that nonsense - invented by record companies to push shock factor. And the utopia was over.

[MarkRhodes]

How would "Discussions of the US educational system and racism ..." explain the popularity of anything? When were such discussions purported to do as much?

You suggested that racism might explain the decline in jazz's popularity. If many white people buy records by African-Americans who do not play jazz---and they do---then racism is not a plausible explanation for why those same white people are not buying jazz records. (The most plausible explanation would be that they're, you know, jazz records.)

[woland]

You suggested that racism might explain the decline in jazz's popularity. If many white people buy records by African-Americans who do not play jazz---and they do---then racism is not a plausible explanation for why those same white people are not buying jazz records. (The most plausible explanation would be that they're, you know, jazz records.)

Harlem Renaissance. Ancient history.

[MarkRhodes]

Then "democracy" came in and the same kids became consumers = dumping ground for WORTHLESS forms of musical "culture" - gangsta rap, death metal and all that nonsense - invented by record companies to push shock factor. And the utopia was over.

Uh, democracy is a lot older than jazz.

I see value in what you call "high culture," but the notion of high culture is now branded as elitist, imperialistic, racist, sexist, and on the litany runs.

[woland]

Uh, democracy is a lot older than jazz.

I see value in what you call "high culture," but the notion of high culture is now branded as elitist, imperialistic, racist, sexist, and on the litany runs.

The notion of democracy yes - but the realization was never achieved in human history.
Sure - anything that has any connection with independent thinking is branded by "elitist" etc by propaganda.
Just as Jack Nicholson's character says in "Easy Rider" - they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom. But they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em....

[markf]

his accent is kind of a blend of New Yorker and German, yet he is from England.
maybe from travelling all the time.

I think he's from Yorkshire. Yorkshire is a weird accent.

I think Allan Holdsworth is also from Yorkshire.

[Patrick2]

Discussions of the US educational system and racism do not address why jazz has faded more than folk and country music.

I would have to agree that discussions on these topics do not address, as you say, why jazz has faded. But, What I responded to was your comment to "explore" why jazz has struggled. It's not up to us to address it . . nor could we if we wanted to. But discussions in this thread about whether or not race and politics has had any affect are definitely not off topic.

[Patrick2]

Football is potty training for military. And military is why lower classes are there - desperate enough to join and be sent to some desert country so that military industry and suppliers can rob taxpayers again and again and again. Music that does not make people violent but thoughtful is of NO VALUE to corporate fascist state. Culture that runs on profit will always result in dumb masses since it is much more profitable to create inferior product and market it to larger audience. Mass culture is mired with pure escapism and shock factor and it will only get worse.
State may be a great equalizer - eg. socialist countries achieved universal access and appreciation of "high culture". There was a time and place when kids watched Shakespeare plays on TV, went to Saturday kids' shows played by local symphonic orchestra. When going to opera, theater or ballet was a normal thing for people of all levels of income. And yes - jazz was popular music among high school kids.
Then "democracy" came in and the same kids became consumers = dumping ground for WORTHLESS forms of musical "culture" - gangsta rap, death metal and all that nonsense - invented by record companies to push shock factor. And the utopia was over.

Bill Ayres and Bernardine Dohrn couldn't have said it any better that this. You must have attended their Hate America ralies nack in the day.

[MarkRhodes]

The notion of democracy yes - but the realization was never achieved in human history.

I don't think giving people the vote means their culture has to go into the toilet. I think cultures go into the toilet when people stop knowing that being in the toilet is the wrong place for a culture to be.

[Broyale]

Jazz started its slow, painful death the moment its practicioners began believing the music was all about them and not the audience, the moment we left it up to academia to keep it on life support, when we started treating the music as a status symbol of the wealthy, the moment we began worshipping youth,...
I mean, death is certain for a genre when a $70,000 piece of paper is needed to learn it.

[SuperFour00]

You suggested that racism might explain the decline in jazz's popularity. If many white people buy records by African-Americans who do not play jazz---and they do---then racism is not a plausible explanation for why those same white people are not buying jazz records. (The most plausible explanation would be that they're, you know, jazz records.)

I did not. Would you like to show me where you think I did?

Jazz is no longer popular, as I suggested, because the jazz audience has died off and not been replaced. That has nothing to do with race or racism. Why the powerful and wealthy put Classical music, ballet, and opera on a pedestal, but not Jazz, that's certainly something to think about. I'd like to know the answer to that question.

[SuperFour00]

… because Jazz has evolved into an art music. The whole point of jazz is to take the music to another level, not to stand still … process not product etc etc ...

I agree with you, respectfully considering that your description only applies to certain forms of Jazz. For instance, much like Classical music, Trad Jazz is not evolving to any great extent. Like traditional Blues, it is a style, and it's adherents mostly strive to recreate it authentically within a historical context.

[fep]

I did not. Would you like to show me where you think I did?

Jazz is no longer popular, as I suggested, because the jazz audience has died off and not been replaced. That has nothing to do with race or racism. Why the powerful and wealthy put Classical music, ballet, and opera on a pedestal, but not Jazz, that's certainly something to think about. I'd like to know the answer to that question.

I wonder is Classical music, ballet, and opera where always dependent on outside benefactors (government or private). And I think jazz never did depend on outside benefactors it didn't need too as it was once popular music.

So in Classical music, ballet, and opera there is a history and tradition of support. Not so in jazz.

Jazz doesn't get the kind of support that Classical music, ballet, and opera gets; neither does disco, pop, polka, rock, rap, or hip-hop.

[AlsoRan]

I would submit that here in America, country music continues to endure and thrive because it is the favorite music of people that live in rural areas, especially in the South. When ever I have travelled through rural areas, the radio stations are full of country.

Because of this, Country and Western music is a part of their culture and identity. And this gets past from generation to generation.

Also, I believe the public as a whole wants to hear words in their music. They want it to express their frustration, sexual leanings, joy, and even their anger depending on the person.

Jazz has no core cultural group claiming it, it may not adequately express what people want to hear, and just as importantly, the radio stations don't want to play it but instead play what the record companies want.

I have read in many places that most music-oriented radio stations are owned in some fashion by a record company or some conglomerate that owns a record company.

Finally, music is part of rebellion and for most young people, Jazz represents the past generation(s), from which they want to differentiate themselves.

There are probably many other factors but these are the ones I have personally seen and experienced.

[SuperFour00]

I wonder is Classical music, ballet, and opera where always dependent on outside benefactors (government or private). And I think jazz never did depend on outside benefactors it didn't need too as it was once popular music.

So in Classical music, ballet, and opera there is a history and tradition of support. Not so in jazz.

Jazz doesn't get the kind of support that Classical music, ballet, and opera gets; neither does disco, pop, polka, rock, rap, or hip-hop. I don't see the racism.

Art has a history of support by government and Church. It's true that Classical Music, including opera and classical ballet pre-date Jazz. I am including Jazz as a form of Art rather than as a form of commercial Pop music, albeit having once been more popular in earlier manifestations.

Interestingly, Classical music was built on the foundations of the Folk musics of various European, and to an extent, some exotic cultures. Those Folk styles were presumeably popular with the populations of those cultures. When Classical music evolved to the point of being far more advanced and complex than it's ancestral forms, it began to be supported (for various personal, nationalistic and political reasons) by powerful groups and individuals. From popular to subsidized, all several hundred years ago. Similarly, when "Jass" music, performed often in brothels and speakeasies, evolved into a very advanced and creative form, it crossed tha same set of lines, only more recently.

Disco, Pop, Rock, etc. are commercialized forms of music. I don't categorize Jazz with those styles because it has grown beyond the scope of those styles.

[cosmic gumbo]

Regular people just want to go out, party, dance, and have a good time. Music that supports this agenda is still popular. Ragtime, Dixie, Swing musicians knew they were entertainers, it was definitely social music.

It was none other than Miles, who developed and explored the whole spectrum of serious jazz, that came to the realization that jazz was no longer hip with any street credibility and he had to address that to try and remain relevant to folks "on the corner". He knew when a style of jazz had run it's course and was obsolete. Gotta keep changing.

Now we lament, because for 50+ years, so many fans and musicians wanted to keep jazz trapped in the 50's and 60's styles, so that the average Joe on the street believes that is all jazz is, some dead old music. It isn't true, but that's what public perception is and they're not about to change their mind any time too soon.

[markf]

Here's a site for information about the current state of country music.


great site. many discussion similar to this one.

Saving Country Music

[fumblefingers]

If there was a will among the government committees and private sector philanthropists to more fully support Jazz, there would be solutions proffered by them, perhaps in conjunction with the faltering Musicians Unions, or maybe something as simple as tax credits for the venues that promote Jazz.

Classical musicans work commercially, too, on film scores, for example, and often on recording projects for commercial artists.

To sum up my thoughts on this thread, I'm for municipal support of nice jazz venues - if it's supported by the people. Jazz may have to share the bill with something else a little bit. I think that some of thee jazz masters could be great traveling ambassadors for this, but it takes a commitment.

i don't want the fed picking winners and losers though, I'm for keeping Uncle Sam OUT.

[SuperFour00]

To sum up my thoughts on this thread, I'm for municipal support of nice jazz venues - if it's supported by the people. Jazz may have to share the bill with something else a little bit. I think that some of thee jazz masters could be great traveling ambassadors for this, but it takes a commitment.

i don't want the fed picking winners and losers though, I'm for keeping Uncle Sam OUT.

I don't know about you, but I'm paying what I consider to be a substantial amount of taxes every year. Much of it is going to eavesdropping on citizens via their computers and cell phones and toward an endless war-du-jour in the Middle East. I'd like to see some of it go to supporting the Arts. I'm less concerned with who gets to pick the beneficiaries of these subsidies ... Michelle can pick them for all I care, as long as Jazz is supported as an Art form and Jazz players can create and further the genre.

[fep]

Similarly, when "Jass" music, performed often in brothels and speakeasies, evolved into a very advanced and creative form, it crossed tha same set of lines, only more recently.

Disco, Pop, Rock, etc. are commercialized forms of music. I don't categorize Jazz with those styles because it has grown beyond the scope of those styles.

I'd agree with that. But I don't think that's the majority view. I only get one vote. Maybe that's the problem.

[Stevebol]

I agree with you, respectfully considering that your description only applies to certain forms of Jazz. For instance, much like Classical music, Trad Jazz is not evolving to any great extent. Like traditional Blues, it is a style, and it's adherents mostly strive to recreate it authentically within a historical context.

Classical music is doing just fine and women are taking over. They dominate on the violin and increasingly on other instruments.
Hear the one about about the nuns who formed a string quartet?
Couple guys were listening and one says, "they're pretty good".
The other guy say's, "Does the Pope know about this?"

Bah boom!

[SuperFour00]

I'd agree with that. But I don't think that's the majority view. I only get one vote. Maybe that's the problem.

Well, if we agree largely with each other, that's two votes, and that's the start of a consensus. Why so many Jazz musicians are blase about the future of Jazz, as though it should compete commercially with the drek that is current Pop music, escapes me.