John McLaughlin on the state of the music business

[Patrick2]

Mark, let me first say, I'm impressed you have the brass to let an interesting discussion like this continue ... you have integrity. I don't agree with many of your opinions, but you have mettle. Let me clarify a couple of points. Racism isn't a political issue, it's a Sociological issue. It only becomes a political issue if a political party or politician raises the matter in a political context. Now, the 14th Amendment is the Law of the Land, and I don't think anyone who's a member of this forum is in favor of racism or discrimination, so it's not even controversial. It's neither Political nor controversial. So, I'm having trouble figuring out what you're afraid of.

Look, can we discuss Blues? You know it was invented by slaves in the cotton fields singing as they worked ... as SLAVES. No, can't discuss Blues, then. Can we discuss Jazz? You know, with contributions from many cultures, it was defined and refined in clubs and saloons frequented by Blacks because they weren't allowed in the White venues except as servants ... until the music caught the eye of White club owners who could make a buck, and then blacks were also allowed in as musicians and dancers. So, let's leave the history of the music that's the subject of this forum out of bounds. It's a little funny, really.

Here's what I think: it would be easy to discuss the history and present state of Jazz, if some of the members weren't literally afraid of the words "Black", "Racism", and ... well that's it really. Are they scary words? Black ... black ... black. There, nothing bad happened. Racism ... racism ... racism. Nope, everything is OK. If you get the urge to moderate, maybe explaining to excitable and over-reactive members that the very music they claim to love evolved in an era of blatant discrimination, so there's no reason to run for your lives if someone points out that there may possible still be remnants of those problems swept under the carpet.

In the movie "Cadillac Records", Chuck Berry was shown playing to a segregated crowd of teenagers, who weren't allowed to ... wait, can I continue with that. It was a good movie. Well, in another part, Chuck Berry arrived at a night club to perform but the manager wouldn't ... oops, that's gonna be a problem. How on earth can you discuss the premiss of this video: John McLaughlin on the state of the music business


if it's forbidden to speculate on the possible reasons that the wealthy and powerful sponsors of the classical arts don't strive to equally support Jazz? What is everyone afraid of?

I don't see anyone here shying away from the discussion on race, racism or .. "black . . black . . . black". I don't see anyone at a afraid of such a discussion. On the contrary, we're having that discussion. Further, I don't see anyone over reacting, with the exception of the way Henry jumped out of his skin when he scolded me for daring to say that I hope you can get over your anger over past injustices. What I see here is a rebuttal of your claim . . and it was a claim, not speculation as you stated is was in the above post . . that "what killed jazz in the end is subliminal racism." Those are your words . . a direct quote, as you asked for. Admittedly, you did preface that comment with "I think . . ". But, your follow up comments in that post lead me to believe that your thoughts are reflective of more than just an "I think" kind of speculation. They're reflective of your true belief.

Question for ya . . . Do you believe that the politicians and wealthy business leaders ( most (all?) of whom were white) who chose to not fund jazz because it's a black man's music, but not a profitable one, made that decision to not fund jazz more for the former reason of "it's a black mans music" . . or for the later . . "it's not a profitable one"? I've quoted those two phrases, but they're more paraphrased than quoted from your post.

White politicians tried to shut down Alan Freed too . . he was pretty white and R&R was obviously on it's way to becoming VERY profitable. I seriously doubt politicians and wealthy business men would have provided grants to keep Alan Freed rolling.

[Patrick2]

Thank you for the support.
I happened to to grow up on the other side Iron Curtain - in the country where jazz was popular type of music. In my hometown there there was a big (week-long) jazz festival every October - and all the time I lived there I would attend it. We had propaganda and censorship and people being thrown in jail sometimes for listening to forbidden news radio from West Germany. Still we knew all that was done to us - we were aware of being manipulated.

I lived in States for over 25 years now and I do not see such awareness here. There is that old story about pot of water - you put the frog in and slowly raise the temperature - and frog never reacts because gradient is so slow. Oh well... enough said - Mark is right that we are here to talk about jazz and less about politics. What I wanted to say is that under communism culture was heavily subsidized and effects were quite obvious. For profit culture results in sliding toward lowest common denominator. Results are obvious. Not everything in enlightened society should function based on maximizing profits.

Coming back to that jazz festival - after the second show ended - around midnight - there would be jam sessions in clubs around town. If you were lucky you would get in - and watch some of the best American and European musicians playing for standing room only enthusiastic audience - jamming until early hours of the morning. I think they must have enjoyed such reception enormously.

You've lived in the states for 25 years and you do not see such awareness as jazz festivals?? Where are you looking??

Here's a small smattering;

Top 25 Jazz Events and Jazz Festivals in the USA

You tout 1 week in October as jazz euphoria?? There is plenty of jazz in the USA. You've just got to get out a bit more often. lolol The USA is a whole lot bigger that the area you grew up in on the other side of the iron curtain. Things are quite a bit more spread out here.

[woland]

You've lived in the states for 25 years and you do not see such awareness as jazz festivals?? Where are you looking??

Here's a small smattering;

Top 25 Jazz Events and Jazz Festivals in the USA

You tout 1 week in October as jazz euphoria?? There is plenty of jazz in the USA. You've just got to get out a bit more often. lolol The USA is a whole lot bigger that the area you grew up in on the other side of the iron curtain. Things are quite a bit more spread out here.

Thank you for the information.

[woland]

What the heck is an anarchist? I thought it was those guys in Ukraine wearing ski-masks that are playing all sides.
Why would they be on a forum for jazz guitar?

I do admit that the concept of anarchy is attractive but also impossible to realize on the scale of the planet. Even if tomorrow all the states on Earth cease to exist - the situation will be temporary. There soon will be people scheming to start conflicts in order to place themselves in position of power (as defenders of the group). And the same old system will soon emerge. I am a great admirer of Jaroslav Hasek and his Party of Limited Progress with the Framework of Existing Laws. But for that we need political system with some modicum of decency not a corrupt oligarchy as we have in US.

[fumblefingers]

What the heck is an anarchist? I thought it was those guys in Ukraine wearing ski-masks that are playing all sides.
Why would they be on a forum for jazz guitar?

plenty of 'em at OWS rallies. Obama voters.

[Stevebol]

plenty of 'em at OWS rallies. Obama voters.

Lol. What OWS ralies? The mask put an end to that.

[Stevebol]

plenty of 'em at OWS rallies. Obama voters.

Fumble don't play dumb. I'm sure you know about how Germany caved in to the demands of the black bloc. They were very successful. Now they're running around in Ukraine, OWS rallies, etc... hell even ISIS might be getting in on the fun.
No one knows what's behind the mask or what it's thinking.
It's the era of the mask.
Personally I think these people are suffering from NPD;

Narcissistic personality disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[fumblefingers]

I do not think that discussions are to be conducted via slapping LABELS on your opponent.
If you do then you are alone in this game.

agreed, i was just thinking that there is no way that you are worth an instant of my time.

my simple, helpful and sincere advice to you is to move to North Korea, Vietnam, China, or perhaps Russia. your ideas will never go anywhere in this land.

[fumblefingers]

Fumble don't play dumb. I'm sure you know about how Germany caved in to the demands of the black bloc. They were very successful. Now they're running around in Ukraine, OWS rallies, etc... hell even ISIS might be getting in on the fun.
No one knows what's behind the mask or what it's thinking.
It's the era of the mask.
Personally I think these people are suffering from NPD;

Narcissistic personality disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

nope don't know much about them, sounds like you don't either. don't know how anyone would if they don't know what they stand for or what they want.

so. there were indeed anarchists, communists and liberals of every stripe at OWS, including a lot of ignorant young college kids who wanted to get in on something that felt important and historical. it was their 1968. they may not have liked every policy of Obama's but sure as hell weren't for Romney. Obama and Pelosi reached out to them too.

there were only two men to vote for Steve. OWS was a counter to the tea party. whatever else they were or are, they were Obama voters.

[woland]

agreed, i was just thinking that there is no way that you are worth an instant of my time.

my simple, helpful and sincere advice to you is to move to North Korea, Vietnam, China, or perhaps Russia. your ideas will never go anywhere in this land.

Love it or leave it - eh? Hope your music is tad more original.

But since you asked...
We are here and we are slowly infiltrating your government on every level.
So just hold on - it will be few more years that you have to suffer under the yoke of capitalist oppression.
The glorious revolution will soon liberate you and all the masses yearning to be free in the US of A.
Of course, comrade - we may have to send you to re-education camp where your mind will be cleansed and where you will learn to sing. All the immortal works of Marx and Lenin - in all keys. In three part harmony. With feeling!

[SuperFour00]

Per your request;

"But I don't think Rock killed Jazz. It may have doomed Frank Sinatra style swing (Michael Buble notwithstanding), but I think what killed Jazz in the end is subliminal racism. The government and the philanthropists will support Classical Music, Ballet, Opera, but Jazz? In the back of the minds of politicians and wealthy business leaders, Jazz is the music that Black folks play and listen to ... the musicians sneak out into the alley on breaks and smoke reefer and shoot heroin. It's OK if popular rock or Country musicians are drug addicts, since they are generating billions in profit and taxes, but these politicians and philanthropists don't want to be connected with music invented largely by and associated largely with the Black Man if it isn't profitable in a big way ... they certainly won't support it to any meaningful degree. The government will pay lip service to Jazz, America's real home-grown music, and PBS will play some Jazz, and documentaries will get made, but all the while, Jazz is dying (as Classical music would without being underwritten by supporters)."

I don't see the word popular. Popularity isn't the subject of my post.




Fellow forumites, I expect this thread will get locked soon, simply for the reason that, despite my own feeble efforts to discuss the future of Jazz in America, the thread has clearly deteriorated into squabbling. So ATTENTION!

I'm out. Your quoted replies, if directed at me, will go unanswered. Long gig tonight, I'm tired. Best wishes.

Mark, thanks for letting it play out this far. EVERYBODY: Watch the John McLaughlin video!

[MarkRhodes]

Let me make this simple and straightforward. Popularity has nothing to do with creativity and quality. If you want mediocre music, mediocre movies, or mediocre food, then appealing to the masses will get you that (if you're lucky ... you're as likely to get crap); but if creative and artistic music is to thrive, selling it to the common man will not pay the bills. It never has.

There are two things wrong with this.

First, several of the giants of jazz were popular. Louis Armstrong, Duke Ellington, Count Basie, Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Charlie Parker, Ella Fitzgerald, the list goes on. (Popular does not necessarily mean good, but we AGREE that many jazz musicians have been good AND popular.)

Second, in a creative sense, jazz is thriving in ways classical music and ballet are not. There's more good jazz out there right now than even obsessive fans like us can keep up with. No one is saying that about classical music or ballet....

[Stevebol]

There are two things wrong with this.

First, several of the giants of jazz were popular. Louis Armstrong, Duke Ellington, Count Basie, Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Charlie Parker, Ella Fitzgerald, the list goes on. (Popular does not necessarily mean good, but we AGREE that many jazz musicians have been good AND popular.)

Second, in a creative sense, jazz is thriving in ways classical music and ballet are not. There's more good jazz out there right now than even obsessive fans like us can keep up with. No one is saying that about classical music or ballet....

Have you listened to violinists lately? Classical music is doing fine.

[Stevebol]

To get back on topic- the state of the music business. My window of opportunity was very narrow and I'm pretty limited musically to be honest. The merger of R&B and rap was not good for me professionally. That's putting it mildly. Culturally and professionally it was too much for me to absorb and I knew it.
At the ripe old age of 27 I gave up on being a full-time musician. The band I was in 85' introduced rap to people in San Diego on a club level. The vast majority of people at the time had never heard it before. A rapper did his thing between our sets a couple times and we rehearsed at his house. My thinking is, we didn't have a pot to piss in so should I get down on rap? No, hell no.
Rap is one guy and a drum machine to me and when people started adding parts to it it became very commercial and fake. I knew someone would come along and do that.
Dr. Dre? You're wanted in surgery.......
Hip-hop became a culture and went global. So it goes.
I only know about 2 things in music- old school urban dance music and classical music history. Those are things I know well. I'm no jazz musician. My parents heard me jamming to Charley Christian records a lot when I was about 16 and they doomed me to be being a musician. I wanted to be a carpenter but NY state didn't have any training programs.

I don't know what's wrong with the music business is there something wrong with it? There doesn't seem to be a place for me in it but that doesn't mean there's something wrong with it.

[Jonzo]

I went to a high school in the 70s that had a powerhouse music program. The jazz band won competitions, recorded, toured, got written up in Down Beat. Now the program is just average. So what happened?

The middle class shrank. There are fewer parents who can pay for private lessons. There are fewer band boosters to help fund trips, recording, etc.

No more instrument instruction in the lower grades.

Higher academic standards/competition. In the 70s, you could take 3 music classes your senior year, earn a 3.2 grade point average, and still get into UCLA. Now you need to load up on AP classes, win the science fair, and earn a 4.2 grade point average. The kids are doing their required volunteering, instead of having a band car wash. Jazz band used to be something the smart, motivated kids would get into. Now, not so much.

[Stevebol]

I couldn't resist this. haha;

Peter Frampton Throws Fan's Phone During Performance To Teach A Lesson

[Jonzo]

I find it odd that anyone would consider jazz "black music" these days. The performers and audience are mostly white. Some of the important early performers were black, but jazz has always been a synthesis of African and European ideas.

[MarkRhodes]

I find it odd that anyone would consider jazz "black music" these days. The performers and audience are mostly white.

I wondered about that. Are there reliable figures on this?

[MarkRhodes]

Have you listened to violinists lately? Classical music is doing fine.

The caliber of the musicians was not in question. As an art form, classical music is not as innovative as jazz.

I'm not knocking classical for this. I think innovation can be a fetish. (I used to review records and after reviewing hundreds of them by bands who were deservedly obscure, I realized that, as Seinfeld put it, "Sometimes the road less traveled is less traveled for a reason.")

[woland]

I find it odd that anyone would consider jazz "black music" these days. The performers and audience are mostly white. Some of the important early performers were black, but jazz has always been a synthesis of African and European ideas.

Many years ago I briefly worked as cab driver. One night I was picking black woman who was a nurse at the hospital. I had a tape of Coltrane's "Ballads" playing when she got in the cab. She listened for a while and asked me who it was. When I told her she said "He's good. But Kenny G would out-play him". You can't argue with power of marketing. She was no Huxtable, I reckon.

[Bill C]

As an art form, classical music is not as innovative as jazz.

In what way is classical music less innovative? The Rite of Spring was composed 100 years ago.

[vinlander]

Charlie Parker also agreed that Stravinsky was innovative for sure

[vinlander]

But classical music never reached the wildness of freejazz unless we enter into the contemporary field of computer assisted stuff à la Xenakis.
Classical stay usually closer to a set of rules, while jazz is more trying to break them

[Stevebol]

The caliber of the musicians was not in question. As an art form, classical music is not as innovative as jazz.

I'm not knocking classical for this. I think innovation can be a fetish. (I used to review records and after reviewing hundreds of them by bands who were deservedly obscure, I realized that, as Seinfeld put it, "Sometimes the road less traveled is less traveled for a reason.")

The difference between classical and jazz,
Classical musicians don't believe anything the scribes say. Jazz musicians believe everything they say.
Two very different world.

[MarkRhodes]

In what way is classical music less innovative? The Rite of Spring was composed 100 years ago.

The Rite of Spring was innovative, sure. My point was that there are more innovative jazz musicians putting out new material today than there are classical composers putting out innovative material today. It is in THAT sense that jazz is flourishing in a way classical music is not. (I don't know that this would have been true between 1970 and 1990 but I think it is true now.)