John McLaughlin on the state of the music business

**fumblefingers** · 08-14-2014, 08:42 AM

i don't think he made it political. not all government is political. some government is just government.

1. he didn't mention left/right, or party.
2. government already supports the arts.
3. neither party is calling for the abolishment of the NEA, etc.

this was about adopting policy towards an issue that he believes is going unrecognized/under-appreciated.

**MarkRhodes** · 08-14-2014, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

i don't think he made it political. not all government is political. some government is just government.

1. he didn't mention left/right, or party.
2. government already supports the arts.
3. neither party is calling for the abolishment of the NEA, etc.

this was about adopting policy towards an issue that he believes is going unrecognized/under-appreciated.

I find it curious that the large number of student loans made available to those who would study jazz at the university level are not counted as support for jazz. (Not nearly so many schools have degrees in rock or blues performance, for example.)

**Greentone** · 08-14-2014, 09:33 AM

Loans are not support. The student is buying the loan. If it's a Pell Grant the loan is backed by the government. The typical Berklee student isn't there on a Pell.

**MarkRhodes** · 08-14-2014, 09:42 AM

Originally Posted by Greentone

Loans are not support. The student is buying the loan. If it's a Pell Grant the loan is backed by the government. The typical Berklee student isn't there on a Pell.

Of course they are support. They are provided by the government to people with no job, no work history, and no collateral. They are a colossal form of support. Not every form of music is offered as a major in college and university music departments. Jazz is a major in many of them. (And this means that many jazz musicians get gigs as profs, and many writers of jazz books get sales to libraries with jazz departments.) I don't suppose the typical Berklee student is there on a Pell grant, but, say, the University of South Carolina, where Bert Ligon teaches, that's a different story....

**fumblefingers** · 08-14-2014, 09:43 PM

Originally Posted by woland

Seriously doubt it. JM is rather sharp and inquisitive individual.

right, and lived in Manhattan for 14 years. a silly accusation.

**fumblefingers** · 08-14-2014, 09:44 PM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

I find it curious that the large number of student loans made available to those who would study jazz at the university level are not counted as support for jazz. (Not nearly so many schools have degrees in rock or blues performance, for example.)

not sure what you mean. not "counted' by whom?

**fumblefingers** · 08-14-2014, 09:46 PM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

Of course they are support. They are provided by the government to people with no job, no work history, and no collateral. They are a colossal form of support. Not every form of music is offered as a major in college and university music departments. Jazz is a major in many of them. (And this means that many jazz musicians get gigs as profs, and many writers of jazz books get sales to libraries with jazz departments.) I don't suppose the typical Berklee student is there on a Pell grant, but, say, the University of South Carolina, where Bert Ligon teaches, that's a different story....

some good reasons for that (other forms of music not rising to the level of worthiness for a degree program or even emphasis, that is).

might be an interesting thread on its own.

**Stevebol** · 08-14-2014, 10:14 PM

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

right, and lived in Manhattan for 14 years. a silly accusation.

NY state needs training programs for trades. Here's why they don't have them;

https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/every...t-thieves.html

**fumblefingers** · 08-15-2014, 12:27 AM

Originally Posted by Stevebol

NY state needs training programs for trades. Here's why they don't have them;

https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/every...t-thieves.html

Am missing your point, sorry. Training programs for trades?

**MarkRhodes** · 08-15-2014, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

not sure what you mean. not "counted' by whom?

When it is said that America offers little or no cultural / institutional support for jazz, the number of colleges and universities offering degrees in jazz is not mentioned, nor the employment this provides for jazz musicians, or the funding made available to students. (I don't think many universities have a Blues Department or offer degrees in rock guitar or bluegrass banjo, but very many colleges and universities have jazz programs with prominent directors.) I see that as cultural / institutional support for jazz.

I wonder how many college/ university jazz majors there are right now in the US.

**Stevebol** · 08-15-2014, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

Am missing your point, sorry. Training programs for trades?

Carpentry, plumming, machining, etc...

**MarkRhodes** · 08-15-2014, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

some good reasons for that (other forms of music not rising to the level of worthiness for a degree program or even emphasis, that is).

might be an interesting thread on its own.

Maybe but I don't want to start it! I'm happy to let this one wind down. But should another arise, I want to ask up front that we clarify what does and does not count as cultural support. On the face of it, it is hard to argue that the US offers too little cultural support for jazz when it still turns out so many top-flight jazz musicians (and a bountiful harvest of those who are not going to be big draws but who know their stuff and can really play.)

**WESTON** · 08-29-2014, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by Richb

I just wanted to chime in and say that the "Rock" McLaughlin clip upstream must be the "whitest", "squarest", corniest playing I've heard in yonks. thank you and goonite.

Evidentally there is a dissenting opinion on your comments about McLaughlin's funk playing.

It's from an interview regarding this track from about the same time

Here's the interview regarding the song.

JAZZ: "Katia" starts like the guitarist is right in the middle of a solo. Scofield is wailing, the band is cooking right behind him -

MILES DAVIS: Not Scofield - that's John McLaughlin. JAZZ: That's John McLaughlin? I didn't know that.

MILES DAVIS: Yeah, of course. John Scofield plays in a different style. He's a muthafucka, but so is John. John is too much.

JAZZ: I hadn't heard that John McLaughlin was back with you.

MILES DAVIS: John McLaughlin is on "Katia" and a reggae tune [Ms. Morrisine]. John was in town.

Not saying any of the funk songs are favorites of mine, but these are 30 years old so it would help to keep it in that context. I'm sure your opinion should carry at least as much weight as the comments from this interview.
You could also make up some fake Miles Davis quotes about John's "Whiteness" like you did on the other thread for effect.

**Stevebol** · 09-02-2014, 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by hemiolacadence

John is hard to get into. Even Bitches Brew, there's an original master vinyl that probably sounds amazing, just not everyday listening.

Fusion or jazz fusion what we think of it, even diMeola it's not great for the average person (and diMeola is more rock). I think many times jazz fusion musicians miss the feel and I'd even venture to say rock guitarists may better in a better spot to play with feel learning jazz if they remember how they get better.

Everything in music is changing. When I discovered the Dixie Dregs I was a performance major and couldn't believe that more people didn't listen to them, to my roommates bereavement. Ultimately everything will change, people always have and always will do creative stuff. Academia favors putting 12 tone on life support right now I think, as far as new music.

Jam bands are one business model that sustains but really ticket sales are those bands primary product.

Electronica is interesting because it is changing and making other elements obsolete I don't know what will be timeless. If you listen to Pretty Lights sample Etta James' "Finally Got a Hold On You", then the rap song that samples it, the time, while only a few years is enough to where Pretty Lights sounds obsolete. Even with the dismal and uninspiring rap the production makes that version sound better. Listening to what's popular is good for a musician, although I don't go as far to listening to popular stations but I know working musicians who do.

The only thing this girl samples is herself;

**Greentone** · 09-02-2014, 06:55 PM

Best fusion guitar player was Coryell, IMHO.

**fumblefingers** · 09-07-2014, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by Greentone

Best fusion guitar player was Coryell, IMHO.

you mean style wise? Larry has tipped his hat to John guitaristically many times.

I'm a Larry fan BTW. Met him once, cool guy.

**fumblefingers** · 09-07-2014, 10:56 AM

First we heard from John, then Tom Petty, now Gene Simmons. Not just jazz but rock too.

Everything is going digital, online, and nobody wants to pay. Gene Simmons blames the "I want it free and am willing to steal it" attitude on GenX. (I agree. I keep buying CDs, bought one for $29 yesterday, ouch.)

Gene Simmons: 'Rock Is Finally Dead' - Esquire

**AlsoRan** · 09-07-2014, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

First we heard from John, then Tom Petty, now Gene Simmons. Not just jazz but rock too.

Everything is going digital, online, and nobody wants to pay. Gene Simmons blames the "I want it free and am willing to steal it" attitude on GenX. (I agree. I keep buying CDs, bought one for $29 yesterday, ouch.)

Gene Simmons: 'Rock Is Finally Dead' - Esquire

This was an interesting read.

What stuck with me was his comment about your Americans having a sense of entitlement and no concept of the work , time, and money that may have went into creating music.

Also how in the minds of many, downloading a song is just making a copy and that's it - nothing more, with no moral repercussions. And this is true with so many other activities.

The other big point for me was when he explained that record companies used to help artists go on tour, providing various types of support - but no more.