John McLaughlin on the state of the music business

**fumblefingers** · 08-09-2014, 12:46 PM

that's real cute and everything, but what is he saying in the end? what's the take away?

that we should play jazz, but just call it something else?

**Jonzo** · 08-09-2014, 01:00 PM

That's real condescending. Good writing does not have to culminate in one CONCLUSION, like the 5 paragraph essays you wrote in high school.

Take from it what you will.

**Patrick2** · 08-09-2014, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by Stevebol

What's wrong with the music business? This is everything wrong with the music business in a nutshell;

Well, while it's not everything that's wrong with the music business . . it's certainly an indication of some of what's wrong with it. But, let's seperate those two words to further define that video. You have "music" . . and you have "business" both illustrated in that video. There was actually a bit of really nice R&B in that video. R&B is music.

Also, let's not blames to "Princes of fools" who might be seen as Timberlake and Jay Z. Let's look at "The Fools" who put them there at the top of this genre. That's the business side of it. The labels see the market for this nonsense and then they react to it. That's business.

**Jonzo** · 08-09-2014, 01:26 PM

I'm not feeling the hate for Timberlake. The genre may not be my cup of tea, but, as pop artists go, he has a lot of talent.

I'm reminded of an interview I heard with Tom Jones about recording the theme for "Thunderball". He asked the composer to explain what the lyrics where about, and the composer said "Who cares. Just sing the hell out of it."

Timberlake can sing the hell out what he performs.

**MarkRhodes** · 08-09-2014, 01:51 PM

I put up a poll in the "Announcements" forum about politics (-political threads / conversations).

Please let your voice be heard!

Politics Poll: Your Opinion Matters!

**woland** · 08-09-2014, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by fep

Especially considering the consistent budget deficits, huge debt and high tax rates.

That is a myth. Tax rates in US are nowhere near the rates in the rest of the world - esp for upper income bracket. Problems that we have is that we allowed government to feed us "trickle down" nonsense and the fairytale about lowering taxes creating jobs (yes - but not here - in China and India). We allowed them to murder middle class via globalization, outsourcing and importing cheap qualified labor via H1 visas. And we allowed them to start useless wars that put money in pockets of the selected few but burden of repaying that debt falls onto entire society - and what is the worst - couple future generations too. Fix all this and we will be swimming in surpluses.

**Stevebol** · 08-09-2014, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

Well, while it's not everything that's wrong with the music business . . it's certainly an indication of some of what's wrong with it. But, let's seperate those two words to further define that video. You have "music" . . and you have "business" both illustrated in that video. There was actually a bit of really nice R&B in that video. R&B is music.

Also, let's not blames to "Princes of fools" who might be seen as Timberlake and Jay Z. Let's look at "The Fools" who put them there at the top of this genre. That's the business side of it. The labels see the market for this nonsense and then they react to it. That's business.

This is what happens when you have the corporate merger of different genres of music. R&B and rap merged a long time ago.

**fumblefingers** · 08-09-2014, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by Jonzo

That's real condescending. Good writing does not have to culminate in one CONCLUSION, like the 5 paragraph essays you wrote in high school.

Take from it what you will.

no not high school, the professional world. a world where people are intelligent and busy and need both detail and an effective summary that crystallizes the conclusions and take-aways. if there aren't any then nobody cares. it's just hot gas.

so, his poem or manifesto or whatever it is, can't really be taken seriously. its too silly, unfocused, angry, and profane.

all of that might be less important if he were really calling for something constructive. seems like he's just complaining and swearing about his chosen art. too effing bad.

**Jonzo** · 08-09-2014, 02:10 PM

You have proven yourself wrong, since many people care about what he wrote. Even you care enough to take time out of your busy, intelligent business life to comment.

Also, you fail to recognize that style must consider audience. In matters involving creativity, ambiguous, and even contradictory, expression can be very fruitful.

Finally, don't busy, intelligent business people use capitalization any more? Too busy to hit the shift key, I guess.

**woland** · 08-09-2014, 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

Did anyone follow Nicolas Payton, trumpeter/multi-instrumentalist extraordinaire, when he went on a rant a year or so ago about jazz? He wanted to rename the music he was playing and call it BAM (Black American Music), because blacks didn't see jazz as relative to black culture anymore. He felt calling his music jazz was an obstacle to him and others who were still trying to address the black cultural aesthetic in their music.

I thought it was not very intellectually honest - deliberately written as inflammatory and I suspect rather selfish publicity seeking motives behind it. Sophomoric styling did not help either. The man maybe be a talented musician but he is not Maya Angelou.

**fumblefingers** · 08-09-2014, 04:27 PM

The items below are quotes from the rantings of this person you like so much. As far as I'm concerned they speak for themselves.

I'd never heard of him before this. My first and last impression is that he's nothing but a angry, racist, childish, boorish, illiterate, profane, posturing, bloviating fool. Is he trying to be the snoop dog of jazz with all his street cred trash talking or something? What a joke.

He says that if anyone likes to play straight ahead jazz that they are "f#cking the dead". And oh yeah, he's blaming all of his frustrations on the white man of course.

"but ain’t sh%t cool about Jazz as a whole.
Jazz ain’t sh%t.
Jazz is incestuous.
Jazz ain’t cool, it’s cold, like necrophilia.
Stop f#cking the dead and embrace the living.
Jazz is dead.
Too many necrophiliacs in Jazz - You’re making my case for me
Blacks have been conditioned for centuries to be grateful for whatever crumbs thrown to them.
Jazz is a lie.
America is a lie.
Jazz is a marketing ploy that serves an elite few.
The elite make all the money while they tell the true artists it’s cool to be broke.
Occupy Jazz!
Improvisation by its very nature can never be passé, but mindsets are invariably deadly.
Miles Davis personified cool and he hated Jazz.
Who thinks of what they’ll name the baby while they’re f#cking?
Not enough artists willing to soldier for their sh%t.

**woland** · 08-09-2014, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

The items below are quotes from the rantings of this person you like so much.

"but ain’t sh%t cool about Jazz as a whole.
Jazz ain’t sh%t.
(...)"

Well... thanks for reminder - I read it long time ago and it still rings rather conceited. Gil Scott Heron Light.

**inwalkedbud** · 08-09-2014, 04:35 PM

You forgot one.

"And if you find yourself getting mad, it’s probably because you know Jazz is dead.
Why get upset if what I’m saying doesn’t ring true?"

**Jonzo** · 08-09-2014, 04:46 PM

As I said, it's like a Rohrshock test.

**Jonzo** · 08-09-2014, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

And oh yeah, he's blaming all of his frustrations on the white man of course.

Of course. Because that's what THEY do.

**cosmic gumbo** · 08-09-2014, 05:22 PM

Payton knows how to push buttons and instigate a dialogue. Some think this helps because it ruffles feathers, but is profound enough to make you think, and in the end, it might help...jazz. For those that don't remember, that's what Muhammad Ali did for boxing with his mouth and his politics. He was a major force in turning boxing into a huge money sport. Wouldn't it be cool if some bigmouth could do that for jazz? Worked for Miles....and Wynton....

**vinlander** · 08-09-2014, 08:10 PM

I really don't see that race thing being that important for the state of jazz now.
Yeah the situation was quite different at the time when all the majors and "elite" were "strictly" white.
I mean most of the great jazz bands of the time, trios, quatuors or else were usually a collaboration between black and white men. Just think Oscar Petersen, Oliver Jones, Red Norvo, Dave Brubeck...both blacks and white in these bands...
Actually Jazz was and is probably one of the most open minded and less "race" restricted music style we can think of

**Stevebol** · 08-09-2014, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by vinlander

I really don't see that race thing being that important for the state of jazz now.
Yeah the situation was quite different at the time when all the majors and "elite" were "strictly" white.
I mean most of the great jazz bands of the time, trios, quatuors or else were usually a collaboration between black and white men. Just think Oscar Petersen, Oliver Jones, Red Norvo, Dave Brubeck...both blacks and white in these bands...
Actually Jazz was and is probably one of the most open minded and less "race" restricted music style we can think of

I'm starting to think it might actually be worse than anything else.

**Patrick2** · 08-09-2014, 08:22 PM

Originally Posted by woland

That is a myth. Tax rates in US are nowhere near the rates in the rest of the world - esp for upper income bracket. Problems that we have is that we allowed government to feed us "trickle down" nonsense and the fairytale about lowering taxes creating jobs (yes - but not here - in China and India). We allowed them to murder middle class via globalization, outsourcing and importing cheap qualified labor via H1 visas. And we allowed them to start useless wars that put money in pockets of the selected few but burden of repaying that debt falls onto entire society - and what is the worst - couple future generations too. Fix all this and we will be swimming in surpluses.

So, this is the kind of political discussion that will get out of hand real quickly. This is they type of politics that should not be spoken or discussed here.

woland . . if this system isn't quite working to your satisfaction . . feel free to go back to the eastern block. Just don't come here telling the forum your opinion of everything that wrong with this country. No one dragged you here against you will.

**Patrick2** · 08-09-2014, 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by Stevebol

This is what happens when you have the corporate merger of different genres of music. R&B and rap merged a long time ago.

Yeah, well . . . Bing Crosbey performed with David Bowie. Sinatra with Elvis. Clive Davis and Ahmet Ertegun had extremely diverse artists in the same house.

**Patrick2** · 08-09-2014, 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by Jonzo

I'm not feeling the hate for Timberlake. The genre may not be my cup of tea, but, as pop artists go, he has a lot of talent.

I'm reminded of an interview I heard with Tom Jones about recording the theme for "Thunderball". He asked the composer to explain what the lyrics where about, and the composer said "Who cares. Just sing the hell out of it."

Timberlake can sing the hell out what he performs.

No doubt Timberlake got game as a singer and as a performer. I'm definitely not hating on him. Just some of the shit that's in the video.

**Stevebol** · 08-09-2014, 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

Yeah, well . . . Bing Crosbey performed with David Bowie. Sinatra with Elvis. Clive Davis and Ahmet Ertegun had extremely diverse artists in the same house.

I was just a club musician. I never wanted to record or any of that. I don't care about record companies. I know teachers and performers, that's it. I'll leave the word 'corporate' out of it in the future.

**fumblefingers** · 08-09-2014, 08:45 PM

NP has played his fair share of straight ahead stuff even a tribute to Armstrong, so in all honesty I'm not sure what the hell he was going on about.

This rant was written during the re-election cycle for Obama, and OWS was out there - and he referenced it.

I don't know his story or if he was political before, but this looks like an attempt at relevancy and attention getting during some hyper-political and divisive times. as said above, vile & disgusting.

**Stevebol** · 08-09-2014, 08:56 PM

Originally Posted by Jonzo

I'm not feeling the hate for Timberlake. The genre may not be my cup of tea, but, as pop artists go, he has a lot of talent.

I'm reminded of an interview I heard with Tom Jones about recording the theme for "Thunderball". He asked the composer to explain what the lyrics where about, and the composer said "Who cares. Just sing the hell out of it."

Timberlake can sing the hell out what he performs.

My point in posting the video wasn't to bring on JT hate. He's a good performer with a nice falsetto. For over 1 1/2 minutes starting in the middle of the song it goes off into outer space. There's a very slow kind of rap beat. I'm hearing a lot of that these days. Before that there was a very nice groove happening. I think that was Timbaland. A good melody. Then bam. On comes the rap and the stripper and whatnot.
Ruined a perfectly good song. Isn't that was rappers do? Mess up R&B?
There was a real negative reaction to the rap in the song, but, a lot of people might be getting down on it just because they don't like JZ, not because of what happened with the music.
I don't know, I thought the song was really good, once you got past the long intro but then at 3:15 they lost me. Rap, strippers yada yada.

**woland** · 08-09-2014, 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

woland . . if this system isn't quite working to your satisfaction . . feel free to go back to the eastern block. Just don't come here telling the forum your opinion of everything that wrong with this country. No one dragged you here against you will.

Always always always the same deal. Love it or leave it. Well I love the idea of this country but I can't stand what that false patriotism - blind faith that everything this country is good by definition - allowed US to become. I already lived under oppressive, unelected regime, spying on people and throwing them in jails based on fabricated evidence or pure whim. I did not come here to repeat it. Your kind advice is acknowledged but disregarded.