John McLaughlin on the state of the music business

[MarkRhodes]

Having said that, I would add this. I apologize for insulting classical music. That was not my intent but it is nonetheless what I did. I apologize. It was wrong. I am sorry. I apologize.

[Stevebol]

Having said that, I would add this. I apologize for insulting classical music. That was not my intent but it is nonetheless what I did. I apologize. It was wrong. I am sorry. I apologize.

That wasn't insulting it's just a longer process to write classical and get it played. Classical is doing very well. Rumor has it that many of these DJs and EDM artists were classically trained. Isn't that a sign that the system is working?

I'm just kidding. I cracked up when I heard that. People who like EDM and DJs talk about how their idols fumbled their way through some Mozart as a teenager. Yep, that's going to get me to haul ass to some festival to see 10's of thousands of people gathered together to see one guy on stage fiddle around with a few knobs.
Not......

[Jonzo]

I wondered about that. Are there reliable figures on this?

There are statistics about audience demographics out there. Basically, jazz is more popular among blacks than whites. But if half of blacks say they like jazz and a quarter of whites say they like jazz, that is still a much larger white audience.

As far as performers go, there may be more blacks among headliners, but at every other tier I see a lot more white musicians.

[Broyale]

I wondered about that. Are there reliable figures on this?

At jazz camp this year, there were only 6 black people (including myself).....out of nearly 70 attendees. Of the whole 7 days, we only saw one black local jazz musician play (Willie Akins). The jazz functions I have attended are mostly white. When talking about great jazz guitarists, its mostly Grant, Wes, Benson, and white guys, is it not?

[Patrick2]

I really don't think there's a need for such an emphatic apology. I interpretted your comment to mean that once the innovation is expressed and applied during the creation of a new classical piece in its finished work . . it is what it is. Whereas, with a jazz tune, it almost never "is what it is" as it relates to each and every subsequent performance of the tune. How many times would we, or anyone else actually be able to sit through Giant Steps, Billie's Bounce, Donna Lee, Airegin . . . etc., if each and every time they was performed it was exactly as Trane, Bird and Rollins first recored them . . including note recititing of the improvs? by anyone who played.

There are obviously occasions when works from the Masters were "interpretted" rather than recited. That's way cool.

[Patrick2]

At jazz camp this year, there were only 6 black people (including myself).....out of nearly 70 attendees. Of the whole 7 days, we only saw one black local jazz musician play (Willie Akins). The jazz functions I have attended are mostly white. When talking about great jazz guitarists, its mostly Grant, Wes, Benson, and white guys, is it not?

Yes, it's not. (IMO) True, those are the most high profile and recognizable. But, a whole hell of a lot of ass-kickin' black jazz string ticklers out there these days. Also, keep in mind . . the word "great", as you used it, is wide open to opinion and subjectivity. One could also say that when talking about great white jazz players, it's mostly Pass, Methany, Martino and black guys.

[Patrick2]

There are statistics about audience demographics out there. Basically, jazz is more popular among blacks than whites. But if half of blacks say they like jazz and a quarter of whites say they like jazz, that is still a much larger white audience.

As far as performers go, there may be more blacks among headliners, but at every other tier I see a lot more white musicians.

I think any such statistics are about as worthless as political polls due to how the poll was taken and how the questions were asked. When you infer that whites are a much larger audience of jazz . . . I wonder how the question was asked to form such a statistic. I also wonder how many of those who claim to like and listen to jazz . . really know what jazz actually is. I'm not sure there aren't too many black people in the world that would consider Kenny G's work to be jazz. But, by contrast . . probably legions of white people do. Soft jazz? Smooth Jazz? Fusion jazz? How was the survey conducted?

What I do believe, is that more black people know of, understand and embrace bop as jazz, than do white people. The outlier would obviously be that lady in the taxi cab that woland referenced earlier.

[cosmic gumbo]

Did anyone follow Nicolas Payton, trumpeter/multi-instrumentalist extraordinaire, when he went on a rant a year or so ago about jazz? He wanted to rename the music he was playing and call it BAM (Black American Music), because blacks didn't see jazz as relative to black culture anymore. He felt calling his music jazz was an obstacle to him and others who were still trying to address the black cultural aesthetic in their music.

[fumblefingers]

i remember that vaguely, yes.

[MarkRhodes]

At jazz camp this year, there were only 6 black people (including myself).....out of nearly 70 attendees. Of the whole 7 days, we only saw one black local jazz musician play (Willie Akins). The jazz functions I have attended are mostly white. When talking about great jazz guitarists, its mostly Grant, Wes, Benson, and white guys, is it not?

Don't forget Charlie Christian!

By the way, is Django Reinhardt now considered a white guy?

(I spent a summer in a predominantly Italian parish and it came to my attention that these Italians did NOT consider themselves to be white people; they considered themselves to be Italians. They know that in America they are classed as white people, but they thought that was kind of silly. "What's wrong with us being called what we are, Italian? What is white, anyway?")

Which raises the question, "Is Joe Pass now considered a white guy?"

[MarkRhodes]

Did anyone follow Nicolas Payton, trumpeter/multi-instrumentalist extraordinaire, when he went on a rant a year or so ago about jazz? He wanted to rename the music he was playing and call it BAM (Black American Music), because blacks didn't see jazz as relative to black culture anymore. He felt calling his music jazz was an obstacle to him and others who were still trying to address the black cultural aesthetic in their music.

I missed that.
He can call the music whatever he likes.
He cannot make others call the music whatever he likes.
Perhaps he can persuade some too.
I don't think he will persuade many.

[Stevebol]

Did anyone follow Nicolas Payton, trumpeter/multi-instrumentalist extraordinaire, when he went on a rant a year or so ago about jazz? He wanted to rename the music he was playing and call it BAM (Black American Music), because blacks didn't see jazz as relative to black culture anymore. He felt calling his music jazz was an obstacle to him and others who were still trying to address the black cultural aesthetic in their music.

We're not allowed to talk about Nic here. He wasn't PC enough for the jazz establishment. A thread about Nic was shut down. It only proved that the jazz intelligentsia does exist.

[inwalkedbud]

Did anyone follow Nicolas Payton, trumpeter/multi-instrumentalist extraordinaire, when he went on a rant a year or so ago about jazz? He wanted to rename the music he was playing and call it BAM (Black American Music), because blacks didn't see jazz as relative to black culture anymore. He felt calling his music jazz was an obstacle to him and others who were still trying to address the black cultural aesthetic in their music.

Love that guy. He's certainly not diplomatic and doesn't pull any punches but he says some things that have really needed to be said for a long time. Of course no one has to buy into everything he says but musicians need to recognize that the tradition needs more to stay alive than playing your lydian scale and swinging Satin Doll in a restaurant. I see him as sort of a natural yin to Wynton's yang.

On Why Jazz Isn?t Cool Anymore | Nicholas Payton


That's the article. Again... his language is harsh but his logic is brilliant. Give it a fair shake because he's got serious shit to say.

[Stevebol]

My first gig ever was a Juneteenth Festival. I was playing black music when Nic was in diapers so he's not going to hurt my feelings.
He IS he savior of archaic pop music. Some people think art is a lie and it's purpose is to reveal the truth. Picasso said something like that. Do people really think Nic Payton has anything against white people or anyone else?

OCCUPY JAZZ. Occupy the hell out of it. Turn it upside down and shake it up. Question EVERYTHING.

[inwalkedbud]

I missed that.
He can call the music whatever he likes.
He cannot make others call the music whatever he likes.
Perhaps he can persuade some too.
I don't think he will persuade many.

It's not some kind of semantic thing. It's much deeper than that. Jazz is a term that has become the subject of so much debate and has been defined so tightly by particular people that there are loads of musicians coming out of that tradition who are playing very real interesting music who get thrown by the wayside because they're not playing standards. He doesn't think the music that people call jazz really is in the original spirit of jazz. People say that you have to play bop, or you have to play american songbook tunes, or you have to be able to sound like clifford, or bird, or wes or it's not really jazz. Jazz is supposed to be a very inclusive term and in a lot of ways (academia? recording industry? etc) it has become an EXclusive term. Well that's not jazz because it doesn't swing ... that's not jazz because there's a drum machine... that's not jazz because etc etc. When that happens it's frequently the most adventurous and innovative musicians that take the hit.

It's worth noting that a LOT of important musicians for decades and now have subscribed to similar views. Amiri Baraka in the 60's called music "black music" "new music" "the new thing" etc ... he could already see jazz becoming institutionalized and turned into a classical music. I went to a class w/ Ravi Coltrane once and he actually refused to say the word "jazz" ... whenever he was backed into a corner he'd call it "the J word" ... I guess he felt that calling his music jazz put it in a box he didn't want it to be in.

Again you can buy into this theory in whole, in part, or not at all ... but it's an extremely valid perspective and there's a lot of history behind it.

[Patrick2]

Love that guy. He's certainly not diplomatic and doesn't pull any punches but he says some things that have really needed to be said for a long time. Of course no one has to buy into everything he says but recognizing that the tradition needs more to stay alive than playing your lydian scale and swinging Satin Doll in a restaurant. I see him as sort of a natural yin to Wynton's yang.

On Why Jazz Isn?t Cool Anymore | Nicholas Payton


That's the article. Again... his language is harsh but his logic is brilliant. Give it a fair shake because he's got serious shit to say.

A brilliant man indeed. And his logic is also brilliant. It's opinionated brilliance, but brilliance none the less. And he does indeed say some serious shit. It's seriously biased . . but serious none the less. His rant/poem reads like a somewhat watered down delivery of an earlier version of a very militant H. Rap Brown . . . prior to his conversion to Islamic fundamentalism.

But, to one of his points, many do still see New Orleans as the true birth place of jazz. That's where the earlier elements of African American culture such as "field hollers", hymns, work songs, sorrow songs . . . followed by blues . . eventually came together with European music and formed the beginning of what we currently know (and embrace, despite the wishes of Payton) as jazz. Guys like Louis Armstrong and Earl Hines took it forward from there. Then Diz. The rest is well known and well documented history

[Jonzo]

I think any such statistics are about as worthless as political polls due to how the poll was taken and how the questions were asked. When you infer that whites are a much larger audience of jazz . . . I wonder how the question was asked to form such a statistic. I also wonder how many of those who claim to like and listen to jazz . . really know what jazz actually is. I'm not sure there aren't too many black people in the world that would consider Kenny G's work to be jazz. But, by contrast . . probably legions of white people do. Soft jazz? Smooth Jazz? Fusion jazz? How was the survey conducted?

What I do believe, is that more black people know of, understand and embrace bop as jazz, than do white people. The outlier would obviously be that lady in the taxi cab that woland referenced earlier.

Yeah, facts can appear worthless when they don't support our opinions...

I have yet to attend a jazz performance that is not a predominantly white audience. Even the one I attended in Oakland was more than half white. These were not soft jazz events.

If blacks make up only 13% of the population, it isn't likely that they will outnumber whites in most market segments.

Another interesting market phenomena is the way white people dress at these concerts. What's with all the loud print shirts?

[Jonzo]

Love that guy. He's certainly not diplomatic and doesn't pull any punches but he says some things that have really needed to be said for a long time. Of course no one has to buy into everything he says but musicians need to recognize that the tradition needs more to stay alive than playing your lydian scale and swinging Satin Doll in a restaurant. I see him as sort of a natural yin to Wynton's yang.

On Why Jazz Isn?t Cool Anymore | Nicholas Payton


That's the article. Again... his language is harsh but his logic is brilliant. Give it a fair shake because he's got serious shit to say.

I found it interesting that my then 12 year old son's bass teacher gave him that article right off the bat. He is an old black guy who learned by ear, and has played with most of the Bop greats. You would expect him to be a traditionalist.

He also has not encouraged my son to transcribe or copy anyone, although they do work on standards.

[Stevebol]

I found it interesting that my then 12 year old son's bass teacher gave him that article right off the bat. He is an old black guy who learned by ear, and has played with most of the Bop greats. You would expect him to be a traditionalist.

He also has not encouraged my son to transcribe or copy anyone, although they do work on standards.

You found a teacher who doesn't suck. Go figure. Transcribing is overrated. A little goes a long way.

[Jonzo]

Like most "untrained" teachers, he has his strengths and weaknesses. He puts finding your own voice first, but he says they will do some transcription eventually.

That Payton rant is interesting because it is sort of like a Rohrshock test. There is so much in it to make you nod your head, or piss you off. I was surprised, when I read other articles on his blog, by how much of the discussion was about racial stuff, and the label "Black American Music". I saw the article as being much more about the mind-frame required to be truly creative.

While "Black American Music" is one accurate label that gives credit where credit is due, I think it is backward-looking, and limiting, so not really consistent with his more foreward-looking take on creativity.

Another thing my sons teacher told him was that he doesn't play "jazz", he plays music. So he encourages him to study classical, and play heavy metal. Explore all of it. As soon as you define a sub genre you limit it.

But labels are useful too. Most Native Americans embrace the label "Indian", both for practical purposes, and because it neatly illustrates their problematic experience since the arrival of Europeans. I don't see the label "Jazz" going anywhere.

Now about those loud print shirts, I think the white jazz audience has decided you need to dress like Bill Cosby to be a real jazz fan.

[Stevebol]

What's wrong with the music business? This is everything wrong with the music business in a nutshell;

[Stevebol]

Like most "untrained" teachers, he has his strengths and weaknesses. He puts finding your own voice first, but he says they will do some transcription eventually.

That Payton rant is interesting because it is sort of like a Rohrshock test. There is so much in it to make you nod your head, or piss you off. I was surprised, when I read other articles on his blog, by how much of the discussion was about racial stuff, and the label "Black American Music". I saw the article as being much more about the mind-frame required to be truly creative.

While "Black American Music" is one accurate label that gives credit where credit is due, I think it is backward-looking, and limiting, so not really consistent with his more foreward-looking take on creativity.

Another thing my sons teacher told him was that he doesn't play "jazz", he plays music. So he encourages him to study classical, and play heavy metal. Explore all of it. As soon as you define a sub genre you limit it.

But labels are useful too. Most Native Americans embrace the label "Indian", both for practical purposes, and because it neatly illustrates their problematic experience since the arrival of Europeans. I don't see the label "Jazz" going anywhere.

Now about those loud print shirts, I think the white jazz audience has decided you need to dress like Bill Cosby to be a real jazz fan.

I think Nic created a persona on paper. Listening to him speak in a video interview he was different. He tries to explain the problems of judging jazz within the confines of western classical music. That's no easy task.

[Jonzo]

One thing I think about is how there are now millions of musicians out there with access to some really great recording technology right in their bedroom. As always, 99% of them are making crap, but 1% are geniuses. I probably wouldn't even recognize their greatness on first listen, so how do I discover them?

[fumblefingers]

What's wrong with the music business? This is everything wrong with the music business in a nutshell;

good god its timberlake. nauseating.

[Jonzo]

I think Nic created a persona on paper. Listening to him speak in a video interview he was different. He tries to explain the problems of judging jazz within the confines of western classical music. That's no easy task.

He is a smart guy. I don't agree with everything he says, but he gave me plenty to think about.