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Hm. I thought it was a good interview. I've been trying to find a way to enter the conversation. He's one who would have a good perspective since he played with Miles and Tony and had a massive career as a guitarist and leader/artist. And that he couldn't get a record contract now if he wanted to.
I think most people are not aware how dire the circumstances are. Unless you had a record deal back in the day before everything went kaflooey you might not have a good point of comparison.
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07-25-2014 01:49 AM
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well i guess they should have interviewed you instead. What were they thinking?
Originally Posted by Richb
Oh wait, he has major credibility being a massive virtuoso and historical figure who is still breaking musical ground and all, and you don't share any of those characteristics.
Oh well.
there's another small problem too, and that is, your jazz history acumen is faulty.
spare us the ignorant rants please.Last edited by fumblefingers; 07-25-2014 at 02:01 AM.
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Richb: There are times when I really enjoy your harshness and blunt commentary. This is one of those times. I do agree with most of what you said, not withstanding the commentary on JM's interview, because I didn't listen to it. I'm not sure I could sit still through a 9 minute 34 second interview on a topic which you accurately identified as very tired.
I would disagree with your comment that there was never an audience for jazz . . . unless you are comparing jazz audiences with the sports arena filled pop, rock, metal . . etc, audiences. No . . jazz audiences never reached those levels or anything remotely close to them . . and never will. As the older "seasoned citizens" die off there are fewer and fewer people tuned in to the traditional bop type jazz, or swing or big band. But back in the '40's, '50s '60's and even in the '70s . . . jazz was doing pretty damned good.
What I'm curious about, is why is jazz still so popular in many European countries .. and way popular in Japan? I used to believe that those audiences were totally ignorant to the jazz music they were paying money to listen to . . . just wanting to be *in the crowd* because it might have been considered "hip" to appreciate all things American. But, I quickly learned that wasn't the case at all. Those audiences not only enjoy jazz music . . they understand it. (generalizing, of course)
It's kinda like a problem that keeps feeding upon itself. One of the reasons, possibly the main reason that traditional jazz audiences have been in a free fall, is due to lack of exposure. The club owners don't book it because the audiences don't buy it . . . because the audiences are less and less exposed to it as time goes on. The labels aren't investing in recording and marketing traditional jazz artists because they don't see enough people buying it . . because the audiences are less and less exposed to it as time goes on. It's self perpetuating.
In current times, there are far more jazz educational venues available to young musicians than at any other time in history. Many of the young musicians are taking advantage of what available to them in jazz music education at universities and private schools such as Berkelee. What the heck happens to all of that interest after some of these young monster musicians complete their educations in jazz music? Are they gravitating to modern jazz hoping to earn a better living at it than they would playing bop? Are they really disinterested in bop, in favor of modern jazz? Are they more interested in modern jazz because it's perceived to be easier to stretch out technically than it might be to speak intellingently through their instruments in a harmonically accurate/correct bop language? I don't know, man . . . but it really sucks that more of these talented kids don't seem to want to embrace more of what I selfishly call *real jazz*. It sucks, but I do understand why it's just not feasible, from a financial aspect, for them to do so.
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Can't let that pass without posting one of my favorite Mingus "churchy stuff" tunes. First, the well-known studio version Originally Posted by henryrobinett
Then the one with Electric Guitar. Hot stuff, too. Bewildered me when I first it heard and had no clue..... Also, this version has the vocal:
"He walked on the water
(He) gave sight to the blind
He healed the sick
And he raised the dead
Talkin' about Jesus!!!"
By the way, who is the guitar player here? I never had this record---a friend put it on a cassette for me back in the '80s. I never knew who the guitarist was....Last edited by MarkRhodes; 07-25-2014 at 09:43 AM.
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Larry Coryell, Phillip Catherine. Ricky Ford.
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Thanks, Henry. I figured you'd know! Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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John's a dinosaur that's wondering why he's going extinct. I went to one of his concerts a few years back, and for what he played I should have stayed home and listened to my Yoko Ono and Captain Beefheart records. I don't feel the need to pirate any of John's "free jazz" music.
In spite of government funding, the symphonies in the States are going bankrupt because people are not going and people are not buying CD's. Nevertheless, the musician unions feel that the musicians deserve the highest pay. (Speaking of which, the symphony in Denver is so desperate for money they agreed to be sponsored by the marijuana industry. They encourage you to go to a concert and smoke dope.)
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Yes, and thanks for your reply. I'm at the beach and will take some time before replying though, I hate typing on iPads and prefer a computer. Originally Posted by Richb
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Guys before it disappears read today's USA today interview with Tom Petty in the entertainment section. He has some things to say about the current American music scene, recording industry, fan interest etc.
here's a big hint. What he says about rock aligns very closely with SOME of what is being said here about jazz.
death of jazz, or death of American culture? That may be the larger question, or maybe not. Food for thought.
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Wow. Just wow. I didn't feel the slam to JM needed reposting. Originally Posted by GetReadyMan
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Sounds like this came straight from an economics class on supply and demand. Supply exceeds demand, the rational choice is for suppliers to leave the market. Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
However, it seems we continue to have increasing supply (jazz musicians) and decreasing demand. You have to be pretty damn special to make it in a market like that. Metheny does real well.
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Disappointment comes from unmet expectations. In other words, have you been buying his albums over the last ten years? What were you expecting in the show? Originally Posted by GetReadyMan
a few notes for you:
He won a Grammy a few years ago with Chick (5 peace band)
his cds in recent years have been critically acclaimed
he latest live Cd was rated at 4 and a half stars in Down Beat ("another stunner from McLaughlin"). It's live and has tremendous energy and verve. The audience at Berklee that evening seemed quite impressed and appreciative too, as evidenced by their applause.
he tours successfully every year
his career has him living in Monaco (ahem)
he was on the cover of Down Beat when his last studio CD came out
last months Down Beat had an article "80 cool things to love about current jazz" or something like that. There was a section called the living masters, and mentioned John and most of his contemporaries from the Miles days (Herbie, Wayne, Keith). The only photo however was of John in current tour mode. One other guitarist was pictured in that issue and in that cool things article - Julian Lage.
You may want to reflect on these facts, relative to your take, as laid out above. It's possible that you are simply not a fan.
One more note, JM rarely plays "free jazz".Last edited by fumblefingers; 07-28-2014 at 10:00 PM.
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Funny I saw Metheny sell out this venue in the late 1980's: Originally Posted by Richb
http://www2.liu.edu/cwis/cwp/tilles/...-SeatChart.pdf
Also saw McLaughlin play in similar size venues more than once in the U.S.
Speaking of funk here's an interesting video of John from Montreux
Last edited by WESTON; 08-01-2014 at 12:41 AM.
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A few things just to get back to you: Originally Posted by Richb
1. Yes the topic is well known, agreed. But i don't think that you've considered that the interviewer's questions were posed to a master who has seen a lot and is still quite active and successful (in jazz terms). I think its fair to say that they specifically wanted to hear the answers to these well worn questions from someone exactly like him. (Ron Carter was interviewed in a similar vein recently)
2. Further, I think that you may have missed one of his biggest points. He's clearly advocating for financial and institutional solutions, he's not just complaining to complain. You didn't seem to address his points about that at all, even after i did on several posts above and others responded to it.
3. You can rest rest assured that he knows what's going on in virtually every jazz market world wide. He lives for music. He has has younger musicians in his band, lived in NYC for 14 years, and still tours the USA, NYC, and the world. These tours take planning.
4. Terms - "Modern Jazz" is/was bebop. The term is decades old, and it came about in the 40s. I believe that you're referring to the current scene, which is highly diverse. I'm not confidant that there is a unifying term for it, other than "contemporary" plus some other adjectives depending on the band.
5. Even after bebop/modern jazz shrunk the jazz audiences relative to swing, jazz was going pretty strong through the mid-60s, and there was much more work for a good number of musicians - JM's primary concern here?. Their was a brief uptick in the mid-70s too. George Benson, John McLaughlin, Chuck Mangione, Al Jarreau, Chick Corea, Pat Metheny, be-bopper Joe Pass and many others too numerous to list did well to very well in that period. Things have taken a huge and consistent slide since then, and for multiple reasons.
Beyond that, I can't agree with much of your post in terms of jazz "not being for people" and so on. Granted, its not for everybody, but what is these days?
So I think that your characterization is extremely and unnecessarily pessimistic and negative. More to the point, and in consideration of the radio stations that I listen too, the CDs that I continue to buy, and the well attended concerts that I attend, I simply find it to be inaccurate.Last edited by fumblefingers; 07-28-2014 at 10:37 PM.
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I've made a full time living playing Jazz since the 70s, so I have a specific perspective on the state of Jazz today. Really, two main points. First, I'm a little disappointed in President Obama for not pushing the government's involvement in American music culture, public support for American music, and government funding for the Arts in general. When he was elected, I had higher expectations.
Second, I see that the Jazz audience is basically dying of old age. In the 70s, folks in their 40s and 50s (and up) were fairly familiar with Jazz, Jazz standards, NOLA traditional Jazz. Average adults knew all the words to "Bill Baily", "All of Me", tunes like that. Jazz was background music in TV, movies, and every swinging bachelor had Miles Davis records with which to secuce their college age girlfriends. Every year, we lose more of that generation, and frankly, they aren't being replaced. Most of the adult Jazz audience anymore (that aren't musicians themselves) are the parents of kids in a high-school or college Jazz program, or they're listening to Diana Krall (no offense intended to her).
But I don't think Rock killed Jazz. It may have doomed Frank Sinatra style swing (Michael Buble notwithstanding), but I think what killed Jazz in the end is subliminal racism. The government and the philanthropists will support Classical Music, Ballet, Opera, but Jazz? In the back of the minds of politicians and wealthy business leaders, Jazz is the music that Black folks play and listen to ... the musicians sneak out into the alley on breaks and smoke reefer and shoot heroin. It's OK if popular rock or Country musicians are drug addicts, since they are generating billions in profit and taxes, but these politicians and philanthropists don't want to be connected with music invented largely by and associated largely with the Black Man if it isn't profitable in a big way ... they certainly won't support it to any meaningful degree. The government will pay lip service to Jazz, America's real home-grown music, and PBS will play some Jazz, and documentaries will get made, but all the while, Jazz is dying (as Classical music would without being underwritten by supporters).
What happened to the Jazz station in Long Beach? The full-time Jazz station in Las Vegas turned into a couple of short Jazz shows per week, and the station in Houston that claims to be a Jazz station is a joke. It's anything but Jazz except for a few hours a week. There's no money in Jazz. It's that simple. The real question is, why aren't the government and the wealthy supporting Jazz in a big way?
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Oh boy!! Here's where I get myself into trouble again . . . .
But, this time . . . before I respond to this absurd opinion as to why the decline of jazz music might be attributable to racism . . . I'm going to wait for other to chime in.
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Why do you think disagreement equals trouble? Are you used to agreeing with everyone, or having everyone agree with you? Are you more comfortable in a forum where everyone agrees with each other? Are opinions other than your own absurd for a demonstrable reason ... one that you're able to articulate without a chorus of support from friends? Originally Posted by Patrick2
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Well, I think racism has had its toll on jazz, but at a deeper level.
We made jazz an academic subject, then took the arts out of inner city schools. So how is one to even be exposed to it, let alone learn to play it?
People find a way though. Jazz isn't as dead as folks think. Problem is, there's more folks wanting to play it than there are places to hear it. Jazz musicians are kind of their own audience now, anyway. You should have seen the crowd at a recent show I went to....
I don't know the solution, but folks are going to need to expand what they accept as "jazz" if the music's gonna make it. Either that, or we just let it become a curatorial artform (a la classical) and listen to Wynton play "Honeysuckle Rose" again.
But I think there's way too much good stuff out there right now.
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No, SuperFour. That's not it at all. I was just involved in a squabble in another thread and I'm trying to avoid one here with you by temporarily holding off on calling total bullshit on your post. But, now that you've asked, the only signs of racism I see is in the content of your post. But I certainly do not see racism as a cause for the decline of jazz music . . as you proclaim it to be. Originally Posted by SuperFour00
Consider this; you express disappointment in Obama, a black man, for not doing more to perpetuate jazz music. Then, in the next breath you blame white politicians for the suppression of jazz because it's supposed to be a black man's art form and/or activity.? Do you not see the conflict there?
Let's look at the ratio of African Americans vs White Americans in basketball, football, track and field. Do you presume that white politician tolerate those African American dominated sports because they are very lucrative? Do you have any idea how much money the government continuously pumps into The Alvin Ailey Dance Company just to keep it alive? (ain't too many white people participating in the Alvin Ailey dance troup . . or even attending the very cultural dance forum it teaches and performs) Talk about money losers, The Alvin Ailey Dance Company would have been long forgotten if it relied upon tick sales or public donations to keep it afloat.
Well, I tried to keep my mouth shut on this one, at least for a while. If conversation resulting from your post and my reply continues . . hopefully it will remain civil.
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Patrick, it's easy. Just take people's words at face value; and if you suspect there's more there, question it before considering it a personal slight.
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President Obama is as White as he is Black. He doesn't represent all Black Americans, he represents the Democratic Party, which, if any political party is going to support the arts, it's going to be the Democrats. But, he certainly doesn't represent all politicians. " ...you express disappointment in Obama, a black man, for not doing more to perpetuate jazz music. Then, in the next breath you blame white politicians for the suppression of jazz because it's supposed to be a black man's art form and/or activity.? Do you not see the conflict there?" No, I don't see a conflict. Explain it to me. By the way, I didn't accuse white politicians of suppressing Jazz, just of not sufficiently supporting it along with Arts in general.
About Alvin Aily, no I don't know the figure of the amount the government contributes to that company. If you do know that sum, would you tell us? The government provides all sorts of grants and underwrites all kinds of cultural projects, and has done so, in greater or lesser degrees for quite a while, but IMO, it's too little and maybe too late.
In the late 60s and 70s we marched and attended demonstrations (I don't mean we "my generation", I mean we "me and my friends") to call attention to and combat racism in America. In those times, I had many conversations with folks I thought would be a little more enlightened. They often went like this: "Racism is entrenched in America, culturally and politically. We need laws to constrain and eventually banish institutional and cultural racism." Answer: "Aw, Black folks don't have it so bad, I mean look at Rosie Greer, and Muhammad Ali, and that Fiip Wilson guy, and Sammy Davis Jr., why they're rich and famous." Ouch.
Sammy Davis couldn't stay at the the casinos he performed at in the Sixties. The people who don't endure racism struggle to grasp it's insidious effects.
I don't comment on whether White politicians tolerate sports that are dominated by Black athletes. These sports are lucrative business ventures, and can't be compared to the Arts in any meaningful way.
" ... the only signs of racism I see is in the content of your post." Kindly point to the section of my post that contains racism. There is a reason that Opera, Classical Music and Ballet are underwritten by private philanthropists and grants all over the country to a massively greater degree than Jazz. I don't believe it's because Opera is popular with more people than Jazz, or because the Ballet has more adherents. If you disagree that the public and private financial supporters of the Arts would like to cuddle up to Arts that are associated with wealthy Whites and disassociate themselves from Arts that have historically been connected with minorities and drug culture, you're welcome to that opinion. That's not what I'm seeing.
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This discussion verges on some important notions that may or may not be accurate. I agree that jazz had its "heyday" back in the the Thirties through the mid-Sixties. John McLaughlin and his experiences in the late Sixties with Tony Williams and Miles were a part of the Jazz Fusion movement that was exploring new avenues in the Jazz lexicon. The first time I saw Mahavishnu Orchestra was on a bill with....ready...Aerosmith around 1972, the latter being the opening act. Talk about a mixed message. Of course, JM blew the roof off in those Inner Mounting Flame days. Nonetheless, one of my fav albums back then was his solo acoustic album that preceded the Orchestra - My Goals Beyond.
What has killed jazz? Several wounds. First, with the evolution towards Bop and a more 'cerebral' style of jazz, the idiom and its practitioners kind of painted themselves into a corner. Leaving their audience that was founded in the Big Band era as Swing behind. More academic and cerebral, less passionate and swinging. (Music always was about sex in the end.
)
Second, the industry has been in a decades long downward spiral since the Eighties. The industry exploded with Rock and MTV, only to devolve into Rap and Grunge and other "music". My point is not racist. It is about the degeneration of the nation on its slow slide politically, economically and creatively. Audiences generally lack the 'cultural memory' of what real music sounds like. When I was a kid, there was no MTV, little TV, and learning to play music was a real pastime. Today, kids think it's cool to spin the DJ turntables and listen to endless rap music. No real talent required. The democratization of music. Everyman is a musician with a beat box.
Third the music industry, MTV, and social and technical changes have popularized styles that do not require real musicianship. You need to look good, shake your feminine booty, or bat your Boy band eyelashes and toss your hair Bieber style. Crap has become the musical pablum of a couple of generations of kids. All for the bucks. But the irony is that the industry killed its audience. Like US culture and the economy, music is in decline.
On the other hand, to some extent it is a US phenomena. In Europe jazz is more appreciated, the audience more sophisticated in many ways. More civilized. The Eighties, cocaine, Wall St., the militarization of Reagan's America and the hubris of a military financial empire in decline killed Jazz and our culture.
If I sound pessimistic, I am. You may disagree with my reflections and my assessment of our declining Empire which, like the Roman Empire and the succession of great powers including the Brits and European colonial powers, is in decline. Perhaps if the Neocons will allow humanity a few more decades before they bring on the Apocalypse, there will be a reflowering of music in the nursery of the new emerging national powers. But, the world has just become crazier and less concerned with humanity and creative values, and that is too bad. We may just be the curators of jazz history.
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President Obama is as white as he is black?? Why?? Because he had a white mother?? Gee . . how racist is that comment you make?? If that's the case, then I guess he is as Muslim as he is Christian because his father was a Muslim? See how little sense that makes? You say he doesn't represent all black America he represents the democrats. Well, pretty much all of black America is democrat. He received some 95+ percent of the black vote. Originally Posted by SuperFour00
You're correct . . I didn't have to suffer through the times when racism was at its worst. So, I can only vaguely imagine how despicable it was. But, it sure as hell ain't gonna get any better with people like you continuing to stoke the fire.
This one is just too funny to even respond to;
"By the way, I didn't accuse white politicians of suppressing Jazz, just of not sufficiently supporting it along with Arts in general."
But, being the dick head that I am . . I'll respond anyway. So you're assuming that the conversation went something like this; "OK you fellow white politicians, let's provide some funding for the arts . . but let's make sure not to fund jazz . . because it's the black man's music". Are you kidding me???
You want me to point to the section of your post that contains racism?? OK . . it's the section where you pointed to racism as the cause of the decline of jazz. (duh . . . )
Look man, this is headed in a direction neither of us want it to go. I just hope you'll find a way to get past your anger over past injustices . . which many whites gave their very lives to correct.
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I will not for a very long time get over my anger over past injustices. How dare you imply that anyone should. What business of it of yours who gets over what in some presumed time frame.
This conversation should be tabled. Patrick knows nothing about racism though he purports to be an expert. The only way you REALLY understand what racism is or does is by actually being a MINORITY who has been subject to discrimination.
Really. Let's everyone shut up. Please.
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"I was just involved in a squabble in another thread"
" ... holding off on calling total bullshit on your post."
"the only signs of racism I see is in the content of your post"
"President Obama is as white as he is black?? Why?? Because he had a white mother?? Gee . . how racist is that comment you make??"
"it sure as hell ain't gonna get any better with people like you continuing to stoke the fire."
"But, being the dick head that I am . . I'll respond anyway."
"I just hope you'll find a way to get past your anger ..."
All this from the guy who hopes "... it will remain civil."
Point out where I an angry in any of my posts.
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