Herb Ellis: Shape System

[MarkRhodes]

OK, I have the Swing Blues book and started getting shape 1 under my fingers last night so I'm in.

I'm pretty new to jazz guitar having come from a more blues background and I still struggle to make things sound "jazzy" so I'm hoping this book will help with that but also make my blues solos more interesting. My plan is if I can get this book down then I can then move onto the rhythm changes and standards book and move more into the jazz world.

There are two main approaches to learning to play classic jazz guitar: one is to learn some theory and then apply it; the other is to learn jazzy lines, play them, and assume that such theory as is needed will be absorbed along the way. Herb's approach is the latter one.

He's about learning good jazz lines and how to use them. Here's a video of him playing "Sweet Georgia Brown." Buying his books won't make you this good but studying them will help you understand how he puts solos together and also teach you some first-rate lines to play.

[MarkRhodes]

Logistics: I got a new webcam and a tripod. Before I could set it up my laptop died. A new one (-meaning, a more recently refurbished one) will greet me Christmas morning. (Yay!)

I'll make a few short videos and hope they jump start this thread.

Please note, this thread will go the way the participants want it to go. We'll work it out in ways that suit those of us participating. (And if you have ideas / suggestions, please share them.)

[jazzuki]

Herb Ellis "Swing Blues" Book/cd. If anyone in this group requires this here in the UK I have a pristine copy available, as downsizing my library; £ 6.50 free p&p uk only. If you live outside UK £6.50p + airmail rate. Pay by" PayPal" Any questions please PM me. Thanks. This has now been SOLD to a group member,

[snailspace]

"Is there anybody out there?"

This thread has been dormant nearly all year. I take all blame for that. The subject matter---Herb's book "Swing Blues"---is great but this group is not really flourishing. I'll take the blame for that too.

But a new year looms and it could be the right time to make more of this material.

Who's with me?

I'm in. I have the Swing Blues book, which I started once, then drifted from as I became distracted by one shiny magic jazz promise after another.

Although I want to devote most of my time to learning tunes and continuing my crawl through the Mickey Baker book, a Herb Ellis study might be a nice complement to both.

When do we start?

[KirkP]

I'm holding off on buying a book until I'm certain which one we'd start with. "Swing Blues" seems to be the focus, but I not sure.

Since this thread now has 265 posts, I wonder if a new thread should be started to revitalize the discussion.

[MarkRhodes]

I'm holding off on buying a book until I'm certain which one we'd start with. "Swing Blues" seems to be the focus, but I not sure.

Since this thread now has 265 posts, I wonder if a new thread should be started to revitalize the discussion.

I can add something to the OP (and perhaps change the thread title again) and we'll see if that helps. Starting a new thread could just confuse matters. (What would become of this one?)

That said, if we get this thing going again, I'm open to whatever would improve the chances of getting others to join us.

"Swing Blues" is probably the best one to start with, but all three books teach the same shape system. (The latter books contain more chord types and more complex chord progressions.)

[MarkRhodes]

When do we start?

Jump on in! ;o)

I got a new webcam, so I'll be ready to start on videos right away. Have company for another day or so, but then I'll be fine.

We could say New Year's Day. (Anyone already here can post before then, but it would be a date we could remember when looking back from, say, March or July of '17 and marveling at how far we've all come! ;o)

[snailspace]

"Swing Blues" is probably the best one to start with, but all three books teach the same shape system. (The latter books contain more chord types and more complex chord progressions.)

If Ellis had a recommendation about which book would be the best one with which to begin, we should start with that one. He would have probably known better than we would. If it means me buying another book, so be it.

[pants]

If Ellis had a recommendation about which book would be the best one with which to begin, we should start with that one. He would have probably known better than we would. If it means me buying another book, so be it.

Can't say about Herb for sure, but almost all the conventional wisdom on jazz instruction ever puts the blues at the beginning.

[MarkRhodes]

If Ellis had a recommendation about which book would be the best one with which to begin, we should start with that one. He would have probably known better than we would. If it means me buying another book, so be it.

I always thought the "Swing Blues" volume came first but I just checked and found out all three volumes were published on the same day (1 March 1996). They aren't numbered Volume 1, Volume 2, Volume 3, either.

"Swing Blues" seems the natural place to start, but if someone wants to work in one of the other volumes, I think we could accommodate that.

[MarkRhodes]

Can't say about Herb for sure, but almost all the conventional wisdom on jazz instruction ever puts the blues at the beginning.

That's true, but what Herb is teaching is the shape system he used, which can be applied to all sorts of progressions. (I say this here because someone may have been playing jazzy blues for some time but not know Herb's shape system: for that person to start with "Rhythm Shapes" or "All the Shapes You Are" would not be a bad thing.)

[pants]

Started looking at the swing blues volume tonight. The "shapes" concept matches up well with how I have always inherently visualized the fretboard. Sort of a codification/formalization of my tendencies. I'm just in the initial part where the set of shapes are introduced so far.
At the same time as I'm working through this, I'm setting myself to digging into the Leavitt method, largely as a vehicle to strengthen my weak reading skills. I feel like the very formal theory based approach alongside Ellis' more organic approach will allow me to try to mine the best of both worlds.

[snailspace]

Bowing out, ungracefully.

After thinking things over, I realized that even though I like and respect the playing of Herb Ellis , he doesn't make my Top 5 list of favorite jazz guitarists. It doesn't make much sense for me to spend time studying the work of one player when there are others I prefer, just because I have a book he wrote.

Nevertheless, best wishes to all -- I hope the study group goes well and I wish you much success!

[MarkRhodes]

Bowing out, ungracefully.

After thinking things over, I realized that even though I like and respect the playing of Herb Ellis , he doesn't make my Top 5 list of favorite jazz guitarists. It doesn't make much sense for me to spend time studying the work of one player when there are others I prefer, just because I have a book he wrote.

Nevertheless, best wishes to all -- I hope the study group goes well and I wish you much success!

Well, we all wish you the best.
Herb is in my top 5, so studying him is an easy choice for me. Though I've learned from some people who weren't my favorite players, such as Pat Martino. He is great and I admire him but his playing doesn't connect with me the way Herb's does. But I'll never regret learning the "line studies" from his "Linear Expressions." They opened many doors for me.

But we each make our own choices. There are so many options and so little time. Whatever keeps you playing and growing.

[snailspace]

I read somewhere where he said he and Ray Brown would occasionally rehearse without Oscar (secretly, if I remember correctly), just so they could tighten up their accompaniment.

[MarkRhodes]

I read somewhere where he said he and Ray Brown would occasionally rehearse without Oscar (secretly, if I remember correctly), just so they could tighten up their accompaniment.

Hadn't heard that. Interesting. They were great together---played a lot of gigs and made a lot of records together. Ray plays bass on Herb's instructional DVD. (Originally a videotape.)

[MarkRhodes]

Okay, here's a clammy take of chorus one of Herb's "Blues in C" from the book "Swing Blues."

The Jimmy Raney group works on solos in four-bar sections and that seems like something we might want to do. I played 12 bars, but if we want to work in four-bar units, that would be fine. A five or six chorus solo (such as Blues In C" and "Bounce Blues" are) is not the work of a day, or a week, or even a month.

If we go a few bars at a time, no one falls too far behind if they miss a week, and those who wish to work ahead are free to do so.

I think the main good that comes from this is that a few of us keep at it and get some feedback about our playing. It keeps us motivated without overwhelming us. And we develop the habit of working on something and monitoring our progress.

[pants]

Okay, here's a clammy take of chorus one of Herb's "Blues in C" from the book "Swing Blues."

The Jimmy Raney group works on solos in four-bar sections and that seems like something we might want to do. I played 12 bars, but if we want to work in four-bar units, that would be fine. A five or six chorus solo (such as Blues In C" and "Bounce Blues" are) is not the work of a day, or a week, or even a month.

If we go a few bars at a time, no one falls too far behind if they miss a week, and those who wish to work ahead are free to do so.

I think the main good that comes from this is that a few of us keep at it and get some feedback about our playing. It keeps us motivated without overwhelming us. And we develop the habit of working on something and monitoring our progress.

Nice. I started in on the same thing last night. I would venture that as a 12 bar blues, perhaps a chorus a week (or maybe bi-weekly if that proves too much to handle) would be a nice goal. Seems like it should be in 12 bar chunks to get full chorus phrasing and whatnot. Since part of the point is that the fingerings to be played as given, working those out is greatly simplified over the Raney project (which I need to get back to too).
I found myself struggling a bit with the 16th triplet timing/execution. Kept throwing me off. I was also working without backing track or metronome so, that'd probably help. I have a new amp due later this week and tentatively hoping to get 1st 12 bars of this and another chunk of Raney in at that point. That might be too ambitious though. We'll see.

[MarkRhodes]

Nice. I started in on the same thing last night. I would venture that as a 12 bar blues, perhaps a chorus a week (or maybe bi-weekly if that proves too much to handle) would be a nice goal. Seems like it should be in 12 bar chunks to get full chorus phrasing and whatnot. Since part of the point is that the fingerings to be played as given, working those out is greatly simplified over the Raney project (which I need to get back to too).

I found myself struggling a bit with the 16th triplet timing/execution.

I have trouble with some of those too, especially the one in (I think) the third chorus. (Not in itself but in that I tend to rush the notes right after it.) The one in this chorus I normally get right---I just flubbed that today. ;o)

Doing it chorus by chorus (12 bars at a time) makes good sense. The fingerings are given, as you say, and that makes things easier (in this respect) than the Raney Group solos. But perhaps we can talk about trouble spots, about what came easy and what came hard, and timing. Herb had a phenomenally good sense of time---it's easy to play the lines and drift if one is not careful.

[gggomez]

Can I suggest 4 bars as it is a good way to break down the 3 sections of a blues. That way we can really absorb each section play Herbs transcription and then in addition maybe later in a week put ourself into it?


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[MarkRhodes]

Can I suggest 4 bars as it is a good way to break down the 3 sections of a blues. That way we can really absorb each section play Herbs transcription and then in addition maybe later in a week put ourself into it?


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That works for me. Whatever gets the group rolling. (And one can build, so that in week one, you play the first four bars, and in week two you play the first eight, so it's just four new ones but you're playing eight, and the third week, you play the full chorus. If some part is problematic, you can isolate and perhaps get some advice on dealing with it. If something gives you trouble, it gives someone else trouble too.)


Another option is to play with backing tracks at different speeds or with different feels. (Not all the time. It won't be required. But one value of learning these lines---especially blues lines---is also learning how to play them over different grooves.)

Let's say Monday, Jan 8 is the deadline for the first four bars.
Next, Monday Jan 15 is the deadline for bars 4-8 (you can play 1-8, if you like)
Then, Monday Jan 15 is the deadline for bars 9-12 (you can play 1-12, if you like.)

[MarkRhodes]

Just let me know what you think!

Welcome, Tony! You'll fit right in. Glad you're here.

I have a copy of Herb's "Blues Shapes" but without the cassette. I've never heard those lines played by Herb. Some choice stuff there and I've worked up a few choruses.

[MarkRhodes]

Here's a quick take on the first chorus of "Swing Blues" but played in a different position, what Herb calls "shape 3" and a CAGED player would call "D". (And Jimmy Bruno would call "fingering 3.")

The first few bars of this are right out of the scale given for this shape in Herb's book. It's a LOT harder to play in this position (esp for me and my big hand at that spot on a guitar with a shallow cutaway.) But it's good to take things and move them around so that you internalize how the same line needs to be fingered in different area of the fretboard.

[pants]

Here's a quick take on the first chorus of "Swing Blues" but played in a different position, what Herb calls "shape 3" and a CAGED player would call "D". (And Jimmy Bruno would call "fingering 3.")

The first few bars of this are right out of the scale given for this shape in Herb's book. It's a LOT harder to play in this position (esp for me and my big hand at that spot on a guitar with a shallow cutaway.) But it's good to take things and move them around so that you internalize how the same line needs to be fingered in different area of the fretboard.

I like the multiple positions approach. Might be a cool way to come at this learning in chunks sort of project to get like 3 different fingerlings down for each bit and then work the next week work on 3 fingerlings for the next bit and put them together in different combos. Would be sort of a fretboard masterclass. Don't know if I have the time for that intensity though.

[rave]

I actually have the cassette but no way to play it. I may try to find a player that converts to MP3. I was lucky enough to get the cassette from Jake Hanna's wife who works on my son's basses. It was given to her by Herb when the book came out.

I will see what I can do. I mostly play straight blues stuff, but it never hurts to expand.

Rave