Herb Ellis: Shape System

**MarkRhodes** · 06-22-2015, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by odel

Anyone here have a go at the second blues in Swing Guitar yet? Does it get easier as one moves through the book?

I have. Lately, I'm most apt to play the third one, "Bay Blues," the slow blues in Bb. Lot of great licks in that one!

The second solo is faster than the first one and i found it a bit more challenging. O, and the final chorus of it has notes left out of the transcription but what's left is playable and works too, it's just not as flashy as what Herb actually did.

"Rhythm Shapes" is part of my 'daily bread.' I need to put more work into "All The Shapes You Are." (I have mastered several of the 'vamps' and realize they are the building blocks for solos on standards.)

**odel** · 06-22-2015, 03:53 PM

OK, am going to give the second Swing Blues track a try -- more challenging? Yikes, nothing to do but try it out, phrase by phrase and work on it. I suspect this will be the work of the rest of the summer but I do feel there is progress in this path.

**MarkRhodes** · 06-22-2015, 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by odel

OK, am going to give the second Swing Blues track a try -- more challenging? Yikes, nothing to do but try it out, phrase by phrase and work on it. I suspect this will be the work of the rest of the summer but I do feel there is progress in this path.

Well if you're starting on "Bounce Blues", listen closely to the first measure. It's a common lick, a great way to start a solo, but I think that Herb slides to the second note rather than hitting it head on. It's good to play around with that lick because it can be voiced differently, depending on the needs of the moment.

**AlsoRan** · 06-24-2015, 08:53 PM

Originally Posted by odel

.... Anyone here have a go at the second blues in Swing Guitar yet? Does it get easier as one moves through the book?

I gave the CD a good listen on the way to work. It seems deceptively fast. The tempo of that song kind of reminded me of Grant Green's "I'll Remember April." I learned it note-for-note and was surprised how fast he was cooking at times and how agile his solo was at the posted 192 bpm speed.

I won't get to this one this year.

**MarkRhodes** · 06-24-2015, 09:55 PM

Originally Posted by AlsoRan

I gave the CD a good listen on the way to work. It seems deceptively fast. The tempo of that song kind of reminded me of Grant Green's "I'll Remember April." I learned it note-for-note and was surprised how fast he was cooking at times and how agile his solo was at the posted 192 bpm speed.

I won't get to this one this year.

Well, you don't have to play it as fast as Herb in order to learn it! Learn it at 96 or 120, whatever, play it with an Aebersold blues in F (-lots of those to choose from). Heck, if you never play it as fast as Herb it's still worth learning.

**AlsoRan** · 06-24-2015, 11:21 PM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

Well, you don't have to play it as fast as Herb in order to learn it! Learn it at 96 or 120, whatever, play it with an Aebersold blues in F (-lots of those to choose from). Heck, if you never play it as fast as Herb it's still worth learning.

Heh! Heh! Thanks for the encouragement. I will have to see how it fits in with everything else I am working on. I really like the song but time is a little limited, and I will get to it only if I conquer the first solo inside out and am able to actually interalize the shapes.

But boy, do I like that song. Ol' Herb could smoke when he really wanted to, as several videos and songs will attest.

**barrymclark** · 06-29-2015, 10:03 AM

I was out for a week at a conference. But I am back at it.

I am playing the first three shapes relentlessly. Picking up speed and accuracy. I am also playing the figures against their assigned chords using iRealb. I just plug in the chord for however many bars and have at it. When I get a little bored playing what's on the sheet, I come up with my own lines within the same confines.

I have noticed my chromatic runs have gotten cleaner and smoother.

**MarkRhodes** · 06-29-2015, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by barrymclark

I was out for a week at a conference. But I am back at it.

I am playing the first three shapes relentlessly. Picking up speed and accuracy. I am also playing the figures against their assigned chords using iRealb. I just plug in the chord for however many bars and have at it. When I get a little bored playing what's on the sheet, I come up with my own lines within the same confines.

I have noticed my chromatic runs have gotten cleaner and smoother.

That's great. You're in for a real treat when you get to "All The Shapes You Are." The meat of that book is Herb's "vamps", his lines over a single chord for many measures. Emily Remler did this too. It's a great way to build a pool of lines to draw from as needed.

**barrymclark** · 06-29-2015, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

That's great. You're in for a real treat when you get to "All The Shapes You Are." The meat of that book is Herb's "vamps", his lines over a single chord for many measures. Emily Remler did this too. It's a great way to build a pool of lines to draw from as needed.

I truly can't wait to get into the first more 'song structured' part of the lesson.

...well... I can wait... you follow.

**MarkRhodes** · 06-29-2015, 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by barrymclark

I truly can't wait to get into the first more 'song structured' part of the lesson.

...well... I can wait... you follow.

O, yeah, I follow. Robert Shaw (the actor) said that to Robert Redford in "The Sting": "You follow?"

**barrymclark** · 07-03-2015, 08:40 PM

Into shapes 4 and 5. Not sure of the purpose of the F9 scale yet but I'm sure I will figure it out.

**MarkRhodes** · 07-03-2015, 09:09 PM

Originally Posted by barrymclark

Into shapes 4 and 5. Not sure of the purpose of the F9 scale yet but I'm sure I will figure it out.

It's very useful, especially in blues (where the "I" chord is a dominant 7) and also rhythm changes (where the B section is a cycle of Dominant 7 chords).

**barrymclark** · 07-03-2015, 09:43 PM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

It's very useful, especially in blues (where the "I" chord is a dominant 7) and also rhythm changes (where the B section is a cycle of Dominant 7 chords).

I get that. What I was wondering had more to do with the position of the scale. Just seems a bit out of the way. I'm sure there's a reason for that location. I just have to be patient and receptive.

**MarkRhodes** · 07-04-2015, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by barrymclark

I get that. What I was wondering had more to do with the position of the scale. Just seems a bit out of the way. I'm sure there's a reason for that location. I just have to be patient and receptive.

I think of this as a "root on the A string" fingering. I think of this position as "short A" (-and what Herb calls shape 1 as "long A"). They are related. This fingering / shape (here, F9) is related to the C minor 7 shape. (Herb doesn't do minor shapes in this book but they are part of jazz's most common chord movement: ii-V (and ii-V-I) You'll see more about that in "All the Shapes You Are."

For now, just learn this shape and the lines. Pay attention to how Herb uses it in the solos in "Swing Blues." It's a very handy shape!

**douglas** · 07-08-2015, 01:16 AM

I'm jealous of you guys. I just came across this thread and you started on Jan. 21, 2013! I've been a fan of Herb for a long time. I learned his solo on "Herb's Here" around 30 yrs ago and still use some of that stuff. I have 2 of his albums in my car right now. I wish I could have started with you all. I'm ordering the books this weekend.

**barrymclark** · 07-08-2015, 05:56 AM

Originally Posted by douglas

I'm jealous of you guys. I just came across this thread and you started on Jan. 21, 2013! I've been a fan of Herb for a long time. I learned his solo on "Herb's Here" around 30 yrs ago and still use some of that stuff. I have 2 of his albums in my car right now. I wish I could have started with you all. I'm ordering the books this weekend.

I started recently as well.

**AlsoRan** · 07-08-2015, 08:17 AM

I now have learned all the notes for "Blues in C."

I will have some free time next week and will get it up to speed. The song, at least for me, was deceptively fast - around 120 bpm or so on the recording. I am playing it at around 90 bpm so that I can get everything clean.

I still need the sheet on certain parts but should have it committed to memory and in my fingers by the end of next week.

Then comes the fun part of trying to tie the notes to the different shapes and getting the song internalized.

I have not had a lot of success with this in the past so I am kind of excited at the prospect of doing this.

**MarkRhodes** · 07-08-2015, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by douglas

I'm jealous of you guys. I just came across this thread and you started on Jan. 21, 2013! I've been a fan of Herb for a long time. I learned his solo on "Herb's Here" around 30 yrs ago and still use some of that stuff. I have 2 of his albums in my car right now. I wish I could have started with you all. I'm ordering the books this weekend.

We all show up at the right time for us to show up. (I cannot prove this but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.) I love Herb's playing and wish I had known it sooner than I did and also that I had known of his books sooner than I did. (As it is, I had "Swing Blues" for a good while before getting serious about it.)

The lines are great and you can play 'em for the rest of your life. That's how I feel about what I learn from Herb. And more people coming here keeps me going back to the book and refining something or other every time I do. Truly great stuff.

**barrymclark** · 07-09-2015, 08:05 AM

Here's something fun. Maybe an unintended impact (as it may be assumed that this much has already been covered) but this primer, for whatever reason, has me doing something I have honestly never done: really internalize.

I could have moved on to the music (read: fun) part but I am still on the intro/basics. I did reach the end... but I went right back to the beginning.

I am not messing with the parts I might have just passed over too quickly before.

I verbally spell the arpeggios as I go in terms of intervals and notes as well as calling the chord or arpeggio before I move forward. I suppose I am doing this as I want to get faster at calling the notes quickly on demand and not having to stop and think about it for any notable length of time.

Maybe then when I move on into the music (read: fun) part, I will get to have that much more fun because I will do less thinking and more playing. I dunno. It makes sense to me... and it is keeping me focused. Either way it may be a win.

**AlsoRan** · 07-09-2015, 08:50 AM

Originally Posted by barrymclark

Here's something fun. Maybe an unintended impact (as it may be assumed that this much has already been covered) but this primer, for whatever reason, has me doing something I have honestly never done: really internalize.

I could have moved on to the music (read: fun) part but I am still on the intro/basics. I did reach the end... but I went right back to the beginning.

I am not messing with the parts I might have just passed over too quickly before.

I verbally spell the arpeggios as I go in terms of intervals and notes as well as calling the chord or arpeggio before I move forward. I suppose I am doing this as I want to get faster at calling the notes quickly on demand and not having to stop and think about it for any notable length of time.

Maybe then when I move on into the music (read: fun) part, I will get to have that much more fun because I will do less thinking and more playing. I dunno. It makes sense to me... and it is keeping me focused. Either way it may be a win.

I think you've got the right idea. After years of memorizing lines and solos, this is a chance for me to really internalize the music and its building blocks.

I don't know about you, but as I said before, it is exciting in many ways.

Once I am rolling over this progression well, I will through in some 2-5s and dim chords and hope that will springboard me into other more common Jazz progressions and songs.

**barrymclark** · 07-09-2015, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by AlsoRan

I think you've got the right idea. After years of memorizing lines and solos, this is a chance for me to really internalize the music and its building blocks.

I don't know about you, but as I said before, it is exciting in many ways.

Once I am rolling over this progression well, I will through in some 2-5s and dim chords and hope that will springboard me into other more common Jazz progressions and songs.

That is kind of what I am shooting for too.

Hopefully the other books will still be in print when I finish this one! haha.

**MarkRhodes** · 07-12-2015, 05:24 PM

Another current thread started off seeking the identity of an amplifier Herb Ellis was using in a photo taken in 1962. Before long, the thread morphed into a halleleujah chorus for Herb as a player, with many links to videos on YouTube. Thought participants in this thread might enjoy some of that one. (If the link lands on the last post in the thread, just scroll backward.)

https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/playe...tml#post549213

**AlsoRan** · 07-25-2015, 12:37 AM

Ok.

I kind of have the song down enough to record a take. Now comes the hard work of really internalizing it so I can use it.

I uses a BIAB backing track. Not as nice as the ones forum member "OilyRag" comes up with, but it sufficed.

**MarkRhodes** · 07-25-2015, 09:28 AM

[QUOTE=AlsoRan;552416]Ok.

I kind of have the song down enough to record a take. Now comes the hard work of really internalizing it so I can use it.

/QUOTE]

Nice! Congratulations. That's a lot of learning.
The BIAB track was fine. If you have downloaded any of the sets of BIAB files---and, hey, who hasn't?---you probably have a version of "C Jam Blues" which would be nice for this. You could even play that head, then this solo, and play the head at the end. Just a thought. You can also shift this down and play it in Bb. That's one way to see how well you know it. (The fingerings would all be the same, just two frets down.)

**AlsoRan** · 07-25-2015, 09:42 AM

[QUOTE=MarkRhodes;552475]

Originally Posted by AlsoRan

Ok.

I kind of have the song down enough to record a take. Now comes the hard work of really internalizing it so I can use it.

/QUOTE]

Nice! Congratulations. That's a lot of learning.
The BIAB track was fine. If you have downloaded any of the sets of BIAB files---and, hey, who hasn't?---you probably have a version of "C Jam Blues" which would be nice for this. You could even play that head, then this solo, and play the head at the end. Just a thought. You can also shift this down and play it in Bb. That's one way to see how well you know it. (The fingerings would all be the same, just two frets down.)

You know something? I like your idea about shifting it down a fret to Bb, since a lot of my own personal licks are based on Bb Blues. It is a great chance to practice transposition and since it involves only moving one fret as opposed to several. This is yet another way I can exploit this song to learn to improvise.

Thanks!