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I get it. I was talking about shape 6 with A on 6th fret as root, it has a F#, so it's a Dorian sound. huummm.
I think that I need to rethink my studies. I don't want to think in modes now, just the chord shape and go... hahahaha
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03-02-2020 01:10 PM
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That was interesting. As I study more and more, I'm starting to think a little more in chord shapes. It's still scalar, but I now am finally starting to think of the chord I'm playing and the scale that works with it, instead of trying to find scales that work over the entire song/section.
Originally Posted by clebergf
Shape 8 is interesting as I like to use that for minor chords more and more.
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Yeah, for me it's much more easier to have a chord to visualize than only the scale. Of course that with time it doesn't matter anymore because your hand will play what you're thinking, but to start to study it's a great tool. Originally Posted by Bahnzo
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Hi I just picked up a copy of Herb’s Swing Blues book and stumbled across this thread. Looking forward to learning with you all.
David
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I know this thread was started 8 years ago, but for those of you that did go through Ellis' Swing Blues or any of his other 2 books, did you actually get anything out of it? Did it help you play better over a jazz blues, Rhythm Changes or "All the Things You Are" changes?
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Yes, I got a lot out of it. I use a lot of things I learned from Herb on a daily basis. Originally Posted by Walker
Mind you, Herb is one of my favorite guitar players, so the things he does are things I tend to like a lot. His stuff is the stuff I wanted to learn.
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Hi to you all !
I managed to grab a copy of the "Blues Shapes for Guitar" CD but I had no chance in try ing to get the book.
Anyone here would have a copy he would be ready to sell ?
Thanks,
Eric
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Hi everyone,
Relatively new to jazz guitar, I worked a bit with the Herb Ellis shape system (blues and attya).
I really like the approach and the swing of the vocabulary (I play in gj jam session and could use lot of this licks).
I started working with rhythm shapes but it seems more confusing to me. I don't see the shapes so easily than in the other books.
Someone could help me?
Is there another Book based on simple arpeggios or scale shapes that could help me?
Thank a lot,
Ivan
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Howard Roberts covers this subject in depth in his Praxis books -- Howard Roberts' Praxis System Originally Posted by Ivan2794
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Hello
everyone
I finally decided to go again with these serie. I'm starting with rhythm shapes.
I try to work on the shapes, then learn a lick.
I read it just a few times, then I try to learn by memory, listening the audio, singing the lick and playing it.
I plan to learn the examples and then a full chorus.
I like it, love the Herb's swing but I don't know if it is the best way to develop creativity. I don't want to just be able to play with those licks I learned...
Any long term experience with this method ?
Thanks a lot
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Well, Ivan, Herb is using the same shapes in the rhythm book. What may confuse you is that he is not changing shapes for each chord in rhythm changes. Originally Posted by Ivan2794
Rhythm changes is a vamp tune, mainly I-vi-ii-V (in the A section). One shape (the way Herb plays them) covers all that. (He can use more than one shape during an 8 bar section, but often they are shapes of the same chord.)
It might help you to take one of those 8 bar phrases and play it over the chords---slowly---to hear how the lines sound. Also, note where he does something a bit different (-uses a note he hasn't been using) and see what's going on the chords around there. Does it sound good? What makes it sound good?
It's great to learn those 8 bar phrases.
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Do you think that working on those licks will help me improvise more freely ? won't it cause me to just play the learned licks ?
Maybe repeating those licks undred times and singing them will allow me to express by myself later but I'd like to know for someone else if it will be the case...
It try to analyse the licks and see the diminshed shapes in the main shape Herb used
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Originally Posted by Ivan2794
Play the licks/phrases repeatedly (obsessively) and you'll begin to hear how they fit into the progressions.
This is a tried and tested traditional method of learning to play over Jazz changes. (IMHO)
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Just finished learning the rhythm changes in shape 1 and start shape 2. I try to put them in other key for other tuners (daphné, swing 42).
Not able to do other things that playing the licks for the moment. I try not to think to much and I keep going, maybe this will change.
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Job one is to learn the lines. Not all. One at a time. "Sing what you play." That makes the lines more musical, more "you." Originally Posted by Ivan2794
The goal is not to sound like Herb but to make the lines your own. (As you learn them, find favorites, change them a bit, you are discovering your voice.)
Take your time, keep at it, play the lines well, make music.
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Hello !!
I finished the licks in the first 3 positions, before mixing them.
I'm wondering if it could be a good idea to make my own "shapes", that include the notes that are not in the Herb's basic shapes (like for example a diminshed shapes in each of the 3 positions).
Is it good to do this, or maybe I just need the sound of it ?
Thanks
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Hello
I'm working on attya and I'm not able To identify the material herb uses on the minor and altered ii V i (on f#m7b5/B7/E and then on the Dbmin7/Gb9/Cmin)
Could someone help me ?
Can I consider the lick on the B7 as wholetone scale/arpeggio ?
Where does the c comes from on the Gb9 ?
Thanks !!
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Those are common alterations, b5 (c) over Gb7 (= Db melodic minor or "lydian dominant" scale), #5 (g), b9 (c) & #9 (d) over the B7 chord, more common if the B7 is going to Em rather than Emaj.
"Can I consider the lick on the B7 as wholetone scale/arpeggio?"
I'd say the C melodic minor (altered dominant) scale = C-D-Eb(D#)-F-G-A-B, supplies the b9, #9, b5 & #5(b13).
Also, note that his lines reflect the preceding chords, for example, all the notes in his (Db^7) > Dbm7 >Gb7 phrase are in the Db major scale (except the final E natural), and the first 4 notes in his F#m7 phrase are from the G major scale - G^7 preceded the F#m7.
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thanks a lot for your answer.
It seems also like the line on Db/Dbm/Gb9/Cm/Bb13/Bbm is mainly Ab major no ??
Don't know if I have to analyse it so I can use it in context
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Yes, good point, keep it simple, it's all diatonic to the key of Ab, except for a few chord tones, like the minor 3rd/7th (Fb) over Dbm/Gb7, and #7 (B) over the Cm chord. We were both overthinking it. Originally Posted by Ivan2794
You could also consider his G6 > F#m7 > B7 line to be in the G major tonal center, F#m7b5 is the VIIm chord in G major (= locrian mode), and D# is the only nondiatonic note (to G major) that he plays over the F#m7/B7 chords - there is a C# too but that's the most common altered note (#11th) added to the major scale.Last edited by Mick-7; 02-09-2026 at 06:01 AM.
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thanks
It's hard to integrate the concepts to be able to use it, without overthinking
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Playing the lines is more important than analyzing them. Originally Posted by Ivan2794
Keep playing them over the chords and you will gradually hear them.
Hear them in a way that makes sense to you. That's what matters.
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I don't eralize how this can allow me to use the lines in other songs /tonality etc if there is no analyse
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I think that MarkRhodes is suggesting that the end goal is to be able to play the lines by ear so that eventually you'll be able to improvise your own lines over the chord progressions - this thread is about that: Barney Kessel on Playing What You Hear Originally Posted by Ivan2794
You're right though, in the meantime, analyzing the structure of the lines can be helpful.
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Thanksss. I understand why I have to hear and play the lines, and then the theory have to come after
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