Herb Ellis: Shape System

**edh** · 01-20-2017, 02:41 AM

pants, can't view your vid.

**pants** · 01-20-2017, 09:41 AM

Originally Posted by edh

pants, can't view your vid.

Huh... doesn't seem like it's been an issue for others. I've been able to play it through the site too. Maybe a temporary glitch on the site. I plan on trying to get a take with backing track up later today.

**MarkRhodes** · 01-20-2017, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by pants

Herb says to keep the shapes in mind while playing the solo. I found this pretty hard to do until I had the lines memorized to the point of playing by muscle memory. At that point visualizing the line laying on top of the basic chord shape is an interesting practice. I'm not sure it's fundamentally different from playing around a certain scale in the position, but does give a bit more focus to key tones without having to devote as much on-the-fly thinking to breakdown of the chord in a theory sense.

I'm glad you said this! When practicing the shapes themselves (arps and scales, before the solos start), it's easy to visualize them, but I had a hard time visualizing them while learning the lines. I pretty much just learned the lines. But when I started transposing the solos to other keys, that's when I realized the shapes meant more to me than I thought.

Also, the blues progression is pretty simple and very familiar to most of us. When playing over more complex progressions, such as rhythm changes and "All the Things You Are," where the chords--and keys!--change much more often, the shapes take on greater importance.

**MarkRhodes** · 01-20-2017, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by pants

Did another run of the first 2 choruses. Used an iReal pro backing track and my Epi Blackstone acoustic for variety. I'm still inconsistent on the timing of the chords in bar 4 sometimes. My brain wants to put the first one right on 3 instead of the upbeat of 2.

Good job!

As for the timing of the chords in bar 4, I think it best not to worry. One thing I've noticed is that when you play the lines in different settings (-faster, slower, bouncier, more even-eighths), you adjust the lines to suit the mood of the music. They're flexible.

**pants** · 01-20-2017, 02:46 PM

Thanks all. Yeah I'm not terribly worried about the chord timings. Just kind of an observation. This is about shapes after all.
Regarding tbone's race comment. I don't see that being an issue at all. I personally preferred to work in the larger chunks initially. Especially as I had a bit more time the past few weeks. At this point I'll probably not tackle the next chorus for a bit and focus on transposing up/down the neck and playing with this material so far. Also I'd like to go back and work out the introductory material on the shapes some more as I went through it quicker than I probably should have in haste to get to working on the solo.

**pants** · 01-20-2017, 02:52 PM

Looking at my left hand technique as well... I've been noticing a less than ideal economy of motion at times (e.g. how my middle finger flies up at the initial pinky barre).
I'm also seeing my thumb wrapped further around than I had thought I normally had it.

Edit: rewatching the take on my as83 the thumb is not nearly as far around. Maybe a factor of the deep v on the Epi neck.

**pants** · 01-20-2017, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by tbone

Pants, I'm sorry if this came across the wrong way - the comment wasn't pointed towards no one but myself! I need to make sure that I don't bite off more than I can swallow, leave alone digest. I'm easily tempted to go down the wrong path, just learning the solo as written out and thereby not getting the content down: If I don't really focus on the lessons intention and actually connect the lines to the shapes I'll confuse everything. I'm able to play the first chorus okay by now (I guess), but I don't really fell I "got it". If I look at bars 8 to 12 of the tune, the way Herb drenched the lines he played through the changes out of the shapes sounds so cool, and I'd like to learn (for the lack of a more appropriate term) how to come up with such ideas on my own... I won't if I rush through this, but of course more experienced players probably will get everything down much sooner, so I have to tell myself to take it a my own pace and treat this as a long-term project.

Hey no worries. I didn't take any offense at all. Just wanted to clarify that no-one should feel "behind." I definitely got a little ahead of myself in terms of learning the solo without applying the theory. I'll probably try and stick to one chorus learning the line and then spending some time dissecting it and trying to apply the concepts.

**Sundeep** · 01-21-2017, 02:14 AM

I'm definitely not quite at the level of those of you who have been awesome enough to post your video's but I do have this book and think I might take a shot if nothing else than to have a few folks to get some pointers from. If you want to get better, hang out with people better than you right?

I'll see if I can get the first four bars of the first song and see how it goes...

Looking forward to taking the ride with everyone here.

**MarkRhodes** · 01-21-2017, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by Sundeep

I'm definitely not quite at the level of those of you who have been awesome enough to post your video's but I do have this book and think I might take a shot if nothing else than to have a few folks to get some pointers from. If you want to get better, hang out with people better than you right?

Take it as slow as you need to. If you can do four bars---just four bars!---you can do 12, and if you can do 12, you can do 24.... Get one thing right. That's all. One thing. Right. Then another. And another. In your own sweet time in your own sweet way.

It's not a competition here--it's a convention! ;o)

**MarkRhodes** · 01-21-2017, 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by tbone

Okay, those are the first 12 bars, to be seen as work in progress... I really find it hard to stay focused and not just to play the lines "monkey see, monkey do"...

Learning these lines is a bit like learning a tune. You'll play them a lot over time and they'll become extremely familiar to you. Gradually you may do one thing or another a little differently than Herb because that's how you want to play. Once you learn a chorus, you can give it the feel / emphasis that suits you. (And that may change over time too.)

Don't get me wrong, Herb was clear that students should learn the solos "note-for-note". That's in part because it will ground you (and me and anyone else working through this material) in how to play out of shapes. But it's also true that he wants you to 'play what you sing' (or 'sing what you play'), as that gives the music life. It comes out of you. So if you 'sing' it a bit differently than Herb (put an accent in a different place, or delay a resolution a tad longer, etc) I don't think he'd mind at all, so long as it is done with a good feel and hangs together.

**Doublea A** · 01-23-2017, 09:30 PM

I think that the Herb Ellis version on the CD is recorded at approximately 112 bpm. Agreed ?

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**MarkRhodes** · 01-23-2017, 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by Doublea A

I think that the Herb Ellis version on the CD is recorded at approximately 112 bpm. Agreed ?

Never checked it with a metronome but that sounds about right. It's not necessary to play it that fast, though. Better to play it much slower but keep it together.

(Early in the book Herb talks about recording the blues progression at slow, medium and fast tempos. You could find a slower play-along and use that, and later see how it feels to play those lines over a play-along at a faster tempo.)

**Sundeep** · 01-24-2017, 04:08 AM

Originally Posted by tbone

Hey everybody!

I'm not sure how many actually follow this thread, but to those who do I feel obliged to report to - I agreed to commit, after all! I need another week to work on the first 12 bars before moving on to the second chorus - as it is, my timing is lousy, the rhythm weak and the touch weak, and think moving forward just for the sake of moving forward is besides the point. So bare with me, I hope in the meantime someone else with more respect towards due deadlines will come forward with a take!

Greetings,

T.

I'm right there with you. Out of 20 tries, I might get one with no mistakes, but usually theres a timing, fretting, or fingering issue. Tried playing with a metronome and it totally threw me off trying to keep time with it, even at just 60 bpm. The only way to get better is to stick with it though.

I lost the CD some time ago so am relying on the few folks currently posting their progress to hear the tunes, but if someone still has the actual CD that came with the book and can post it someplace, that would be great to hear. I guess I could also just re-buy the book/CD from Amazon, but hope someone can help those of us that lost the CD out...

**dot75** · 01-26-2017, 01:57 PM

OK folks - I'm in too, spent a couple of years flitting round the web & not getting very far...time to set some goals. Amazon tells me the book'll be here in 1-3 weeks, (with the CD I hope) so I hope I can catch y'all up!

Where are people posting the audio/video ? I can't see any ....

Later....

**MarkRhodes** · 01-28-2017, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by dot75

OK folks - I'm in too, spent a couple of years flitting round the web & not getting very far...time to set some goals. Amazon tells me the book'll be here in 1-3 weeks, (with the CD I hope) so I hope I can catch y'all up!

Where are people posting the audio/video ? I can't see any ....

Later....

Glad you're in! Post videos here. (There are several, but you may have to go back a page or two to see some of them.) I posted a take of the first chorus. I'll have a post of the second chorus up soon but don't want to get too far ahead.

Come in whenever you can.

**dot75** · 01-29-2017, 10:16 AM

Greetings all,

Some good stuff on here - when the kids stop banging doors/arguing etc I'll try and get an attempt at the first chorus posted..

While I'm here...I've got the audio mp3'd for my own use, it sounds like it's the original cassette badly copied but I'll post it here if anyone's interested...

Later...

**pants** · 01-29-2017, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by tbone

Hi!

This is my take on the first chorus of Herb Ellis' Blues in C from his "Swing Blues" tutorial. I used a drum BT (100 bpm) and played some rhythm guitar and a simple bassline over it. I'm just starting out at comping, so I'm quite aware it doesn't swing yet - please consider it work in progress, I'll use the practice method of setting the metronome beats to beats 2&4 as advised by MarkRhodes in order to improve asap. The solo is kind of bumpy and there are several flabs, but it reflects very well where I am right now, and I prefer to show it as it is instead of trying to show off with my best take. Kindly take this as an invitation to give me some honest feedback on my playing and input on improvement, it'll be most appreciated!

Have a great Sunday, everyone!

Greetings,

T.

Coming along great. For me, playing with a backing track like band in a box or iReal pro helps a lot with getting over that hurdle from playing notes to playing a line that swings. IReal is like $13 in the App Store provides a pretty solid track. Otherwise youtube for c jam blues backing track works for this solo. I wouldn't fret the progress though. I think the biggest thing with this book series is concentrating on how the lines fit into shapes and playing with applying that to your own solos. I need to spend some more time there.

**Doublea A** · 01-31-2017, 11:39 PM

First Chorus

Uploading at 10:38 on January 31.

Just in Time, Just like High School

Herb Ellis #1

**jasaco** · 02-01-2017, 01:40 AM

I just noticed that this group has been ongoing for 4 years already. Good job! Keep it up!

**Doublea A** · 02-01-2017, 07:43 AM

Originally Posted by tbone

Hi!

Great to see another Person is posting here! Unfortunately, I can't watch your Video Submission. Is this only at my end, or did you already put it down? Anyway, as Pants pointed, out, the Focus of Herb's studies probably lies heavily on note selection - I would love to get everything down as played on the record, though, I think there's great value in learning how to swing from a master, and I for my part have to do a lot of homework in that respect...

Greetings,

T.

Are you talking about my post tbone ?

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**MarkRhodes** · 02-01-2017, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by jasaco

I just noticed that this group has been ongoing for 4 years already. Good job! Keep it up!

The first four years (minus this past month) were REAL SLOW.

**matt.guitarteacher** · 02-01-2017, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by pants

Sounding good!
There were several deviations (mostly rhythmic) from the written line, but either you're quite good at hiding mistakes or you're taking intentional liberties (I suspect the latter?). As the intent of the method is more focused on note selection a little liberty with some of the "feel" seems perfectly appropriate as long as the shapes underlying the material stay intact.

yep. Sounds great.

**Doublea A** · 02-03-2017, 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by tbone

Doublea A,

sounds good. Not played as performed by Herb and written out, but I don't have the impression that's what you were aiming at... if so, it might help to learn how to play that stuff by heart (which'd also contribute to the process of internalizing the shapes and how to put them to best use). I'm not sure if I should already try my hand at the second chorus yet, but I'll think about it.

Greetings,

T.

Thanks for the input

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**dot75** · 02-04-2017, 12:19 PM

Thinking of doing what he recommends in the book & recording a backing track using the shell voicings he gives, I can't find one I like on iRealpro...makes it easier to hear the changes - for me anyway...2nd chorus here we come..Later...

**pants** · 02-04-2017, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by dot75

Thinking of doing what he recommends in the book & recording a backing track using the shell voicings he gives, I can't find one I like on iRealpro...makes it easier to hear the changes - for me anyway...2nd chorus here we come..Later...

I'm not sure how to share an iReal track, but I just made one with the changes in the book.