Jazz Vocabulary

[AllanAllen]

CST seems great for talking about music, in classrooms and on forums.

[pamosmusic]

CST seems great for talking about music, in classrooms and on forums.

to be fair, it's also great for bashing in classrooms and on forums.

[Strat-itis]

^

[AllanAllen]

to be fair, it's also great for bashing in classrooms and on forums.

Guilty as charged

[rpjazzguitar]

I have not found it to be a fixed target.

The thing I would tend to emphasise these days is being able to play a given musical phrase in different places on the neck, along strings, across strings, etc etc. (A scale, arpeggio or pattern is a type of phrase.) That's something one can do while learning music, and you develop flexibility.

I can do that but I didn't get it from any kind of fretboard mapping lessons or anything remotely like that. For me, it was simply time on the instrument. Eventually your brain and fingers create an extra part of your brain, or something, and you can do it.

If I had to suggest an approach for a studeht, it would be to learn to read and then to include reading new stuff in your daily routine. Maybe make a point of playing stuff in different places on the neck, although if you don't make a point of it, the music will force that on you.

[Tal_175]

I can do that but I didn't get it from any kind of fretboard mapping lessons or anything remotely like that.

That's true because these are very different notions. What you are talking about is playing an instrument by ear. That is creating the musical sounds you hear in your head on the instrument. This is a good skill but it is separate from what people generally mean by "knowing the fretboard". The former is ear-instrument connection, the latter is mind-instrument connection. So "knowing the fretboard" in this sense means knowing how musical concepts an ideas are laid out on your instrument. Musical concepts/ideas can be pitch names, intervals, chord tones, memorized licks, reharmonization devices, arpeggios, guide tones, scalar patterns etc. etc.

So some musicians believe that they benefit from using all their resources when they perform, woodshed, arrange, compose, accompany music. In addition to their ears, that involves everything they learned about music in their conscious mind. People on this camp find it beneficial to have the skill to find things they know about music on their instruments. That enables them to access ideas different from and in addition to what they can instinctively find by ear. That doesn't mean ears aren't engaged. These ideas can be jumping off points for ears to take over. For example when you are comping you might choose to start a reharmonization or dominant approach idea. When you play and hear that, your ears may take you down a different path than you would have gone other wise (which may have been the same old habits). After a while you might hear these ideas without thinking but the skill to find these ideas on your instrument initiates this process.

[Basshead]

Just for fun, which semi hollow for about 2k? specially ones I could find used, Ibanez Sco Japan for 1500 euros right now in Spain and Yamaha SA2200 for 1400 in Paris (I travel to Paris often).

Or maybe another brands I dont know? too many guitars these days man, used to be easier.

[rpjazzguitar]

Of course not. These are very different notions. What you are talking about is playing an instrument by ear. That is creating the musical sounds you hear in your head on the instrument. This is a good skill but it is separate from what people generally mean by "knowing the fretboard". The former is ear-instrument connection, the latter is mind-instrument connection. So "knowing the fretboard" in this sense means knowing how musical concepts are laid out on your instrument. Musical concepts can be pitch names, intervals, chord tones, reharmonization devices, arpeggios, guide tones, scalar patterns etc. etc.

So some musicians believe that they benefit from using all their resources when they perform, woodshed, arrange, compose, accompany music. In addition to their ears, that involves everything they learned about music in their conscious mind. People on this camp find it beneficial to have the skill to find things they know about music on their instruments. That enables them to access ideas different from and in addition to what they can instinctively find by ear. That doesn't mean ears aren't engaged. These ideas can be jumping off points for ears to take over. For example when you are comping you might choose to start a reharmonization or dominant approach idea. When you play and hear that, your ears may take you down a different path than you would have gone other wise (which may have been the same old habits). After a while you might hear these ideas without thinking but the skill to find these ideas on your instrument initiates this process.

It seems clear that "fretboard knowledge" is a somewhat ambiguous term. See Post #50 for a different view, which is the one I was responding to. Your view, which includes "Musical concepts can be pitch names, intervals, chord tones, reharmonization devices, arpeggios, guide tones, scalar patterns etc. etc." is far more inclusive. I see some of that as general musicianship and not specific to the fretboard, but there's no official definition.

I remain curious about how others assimilate the knowledge, however it is defined.

I did it (to the extent I've been able) by focusing on knowing the notes in the chords, scales, modes, arps I use in 12 keys plus a few enharmonic equivalents - and knowing where they are from knowing how to read. But, as I understand it, this is not the common way players do it.

[Christian Miller]

I thought you pulled a lick/concept from the D- line and the "What Wes played" ended there. After that it was running it through major and dominant uses.

Thanks. That was the intention.


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[Tal_175]

It seems clear that "fretboard knowledge" is a somewhat ambiguous term. See Post #50 for a different view, which is the one I was responding to. Your view, which includes "Musical concepts can be pitch names, intervals, chord tones, reharmonization devices, arpeggios, guide tones, scalar patterns etc. etc." is far more inclusive. I see some of that as general musicianship and not specific to the fretboard, but there's no official definition.

What I mean by "fretboard knowledge" is not just knowing these concepts but having a conscious mental picture of how they exist on the fretboard. I was contrasting that with playing by ear. Suppose one musician pre-hears and plays a note within a harmonic context, suppose that note happens to be the third of the chord-in-the-moment. Another musician in the same context knows what chord they are on, and wants to play the third of the chord and finds that note based on how they visualize that chord on the fretboard. They play the same note but their process couldn't be more different. One musician played the note by ear, the other found the note relying on their visual mapping of the chord tones on the fretboard. I think these are distinct notions.

[ragman1]

I've noticed that Basshead's videos have mute set as default, you have to click the little speaker icon on the bottom right of the video screen to turn on the audio.

I knew about that, obviously, otherwise I wouldn't have heard the others. But it's suddenly working now so I've heard it, thanks.

[Mick-7]

What I mean by "fretboard knowledge" is not just knowing these concepts but having a conscious mental picture of how they exist on the fretboard. I was contrasting that with playing by ear. Suppose one musician pre-hears and plays a note within a harmonic context, suppose that note happens to be the third of the chord-in-the-moment. Another musician in the same context knows what chord they are on, and wants to play the third of the chord and finds that note based on how they visualize that chord on the fretboard. They play the same note but their process couldn't be more different. One musician played the note by ear, the other found the note relying on their visual mapping of the chord tones on the fretboard. I think these are distinct notions.

I suspect that there are very, very few jazz guitarists whose fretboard knowledge is entirely aural (or entirely visual for that matter), the music is too complex for that. You usually need to have at least a basic theoretical understanding of how chords are constructed and related and be able to visualize how they are laid out on the fretboard - and of course you'll need that ability to read music.

[Christian Miller]

You need muscle memory to be able to play the instrument. The sheer amount of time one spends in one block is less important than consistent practice over a long period. It’s more beneficial to practice in 4 blocks of 15m doing this than 1 block of an hour. 12 blocks of 5m is even better if you can prioritise and have a good roadmap.

I like to sing the notes and speak the names of the intervals and notes as I play.

A far as mapping chord and scale construction goes - spend some time at a piano keyboard. It will give you perspective.

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[kris]

I can improvise for hours on chord progression – that"s how I practice and discover my ideas.

[James W]

I can improvise for hours on chord progression – that"s how I practice and discover my ideas.

Unaccompanied or with a metronome or backing track?

[AllanAllen]

What I mean by "fretboard knowledge" is not just knowing these concepts but having a conscious mental picture of how they exist on the fretboard. I was contrasting that with playing by ear. Suppose one musician pre-hears and plays a note within a harmonic context, suppose that note happens to be the third of the chord-in-the-moment. Another musician in the same context knows what chord they are on, and wants to play the third of the chord and finds that note based on how they visualize that chord on the fretboard. They play the same note but their process couldn't be more different. One musician played the note by ear, the other found the note relying on their visual mapping of the chord tones on the fretboard. I think these are distinct notions.

The only musician who plays by ear that way would be a singer right? To pull notes from air does not require the technical facility of finding them on a hunk of wood or metal.

Even someone with highly acute perfect pitch still needs to know where the notes are on their instrument of choice.

In short, I think you're getting too philosophical about this.

[Tal_175]

The only musician who plays by ear that way would be a singer right? To pull notes from air does not require the technical facility of finding them on a hunk of wood or metal.

Even someone with highly acute perfect pitch still needs to know where the notes are on their instrument of choice.

In short, I think you're getting too philosophical about this.

We are not talking about technical facility. The point is ear-instrument connection vs mind-instrument connection. Do you not see a distinction?

[AllanAllen]

I do not understand the difference.

[Tal_175]

I do not understand the difference.

OK, put a basic progression in the background. Don't think about the key or the chords. As you listen to it try to play what you hear as chord tones on your instrument by ear. Play simple melodies targeting chord tones. After that, check out the chords. Then visualize the arpeggio/chord shapes on your instrument. Now as you listen to progression make melodies using your visualization. The process is very different, is it not?

[Tal_175]

You need muscle memory to be able to play the instrument. The sheer amount of time one spends in one block is less important than consistent practice over a long period. It’s more beneficial to practice in 4 blocks of 15m doing this than 1 block of an hour. 12 blocks of 5m is even better if you can prioritise and have a good roadmap.

I like to sing the notes and speak the names of the intervals and notes as I play.

A far as mapping chord and scale construction goes - spend some time at a piano keyboard. It will give you perspective.

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I noticed that piano players make progress a lot faster than guitar players in terms of outlining the changes with chord tones (what Pat Metheny was talking about in the interview posted recently). In fact, maybe that's why many piano players insist on self-comping, lol. They practice this way and they subconsciously rely on their left hand to navigate the changes with their right hands. They make more progress in that area in a few months than some jazz guitarists do in a couple of decades. Life isn't fair.

I think some guitarists might be better of switching to piano if they want to pursue jazz.

[Tal_175]

I think someone who plays by ear just does it naturally without much visualization. Maybe the distinction is ear/physical feel, vs mental visual perception and theoretical concepts connected to the sounds to be played.

I use both. I use mostly the second as it helps with accuracy but takes more mental effort. But, I wouldn't be thinking or visualizing the fretboard to play a nursery rhyme

Christian was talking about muscle memory. The mind-instrument connection is mostly useful in the woodshed to build muscle memory (and aural connection) efficiently in my experience.

[joe2758]

dang i didnt delete my comment in time haha. But i was actually trying to reiterate your point, Tal, as I understood it. I probably took it wrong and I also jumped right into the convo

[Basshead]

Which Metheny interview please?

My dad told when I was 14 yo that if I remember from primary school music lessons, there is one semitone e/f and b/c the rest is a whole tone, semitone/one fret and whole tone/two frets, he have me a classical piece score and told me go figure out the notes while i watch soccer in the pub... and thats it man, a month later I was learning Czardas violin piece slowly, tico tico, tunes like that figuring out the notes string by string, looks hard but believe me at the end of the day learning to read music and the notes string by string is a million times faster than what other people do which is going around in circles for years.

[joe2758]

and sort of replying to Alan asking what is the difference

[joe2758]

Which Metheny interview please?

My dad told when I was 14 yo that if I remember from primary school music lessons, there is one semitone e/f and b/c the rest is a whole tone, semitone/one fret and whole tone/two frets, he have me a classical piece score and told me go figure out the notes while i watch soccer in the pub... and thats it man, a month later I was learning Czardas violin piece slowly, tico tico, tunes like that figuring out the notes string by string, looks hard but believe me at the end of the day learning to read music and the notes string by string is a million times faster than what other people do which is going around in circles for years.

Usually I would dismiss a comment like this, but you are a very good player so it must be legit