Jazz Vocabulary

[Tal_175]

It seems clear that "fretboard knowledge" is a somewhat ambiguous term. See Post #50 for a different view, which is the one I was responding to. Your view, which includes "Musical concepts can be pitch names, intervals, chord tones, reharmonization devices, arpeggios, guide tones, scalar patterns etc. etc." is far more inclusive. I see some of that as general musicianship and not specific to the fretboard, but there's no official definition.

What I mean by "fretboard knowledge" is not just knowing these concepts but having a conscious mental picture of how they exist on the fretboard. I was contrasting that with playing by ear. Suppose one musician pre-hears and plays a note within a harmonic context, suppose that note happens to be the third of the chord-in-the-moment. Another musician in the same context knows what chord they are on, and wants to play the third of the chord and finds that note based on how they visualize that chord on the fretboard. They play the same note but their process couldn't be more different. One musician played the note by ear, the other found the note relying on their visual mapping of the chord tones on the fretboard. I think these are distinct notions.

[ragman1]

I've noticed that Basshead's videos have mute set as default, you have to click the little speaker icon on the bottom right of the video screen to turn on the audio.

I knew about that, obviously, otherwise I wouldn't have heard the others. But it's suddenly working now so I've heard it, thanks.

[Mick-7]

What I mean by "fretboard knowledge" is not just knowing these concepts but having a conscious mental picture of how they exist on the fretboard. I was contrasting that with playing by ear. Suppose one musician pre-hears and plays a note within a harmonic context, suppose that note happens to be the third of the chord-in-the-moment. Another musician in the same context knows what chord they are on, and wants to play the third of the chord and finds that note based on how they visualize that chord on the fretboard. They play the same note but their process couldn't be more different. One musician played the note by ear, the other found the note relying on their visual mapping of the chord tones on the fretboard. I think these are distinct notions.

I suspect that there are very, very few jazz guitarists whose fretboard knowledge is entirely aural (or entirely visual for that matter), the music is too complex for that. You usually need to have at least a basic theoretical understanding of how chords are constructed and related and be able to visualize how they are laid out on the fretboard - and of course you'll need that ability to read music.

[Christian Miller]

You need muscle memory to be able to play the instrument. The sheer amount of time one spends in one block is less important than consistent practice over a long period. It’s more beneficial to practice in 4 blocks of 15m doing this than 1 block of an hour. 12 blocks of 5m is even better if you can prioritise and have a good roadmap.

I like to sing the notes and speak the names of the intervals and notes as I play.

A far as mapping chord and scale construction goes - spend some time at a piano keyboard. It will give you perspective.

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[kris]

I can improvise for hours on chord progression – that"s how I practice and discover my ideas.

[James W]

I can improvise for hours on chord progression – that"s how I practice and discover my ideas.

Unaccompanied or with a metronome or backing track?

[AllanAllen]

What I mean by "fretboard knowledge" is not just knowing these concepts but having a conscious mental picture of how they exist on the fretboard. I was contrasting that with playing by ear. Suppose one musician pre-hears and plays a note within a harmonic context, suppose that note happens to be the third of the chord-in-the-moment. Another musician in the same context knows what chord they are on, and wants to play the third of the chord and finds that note based on how they visualize that chord on the fretboard. They play the same note but their process couldn't be more different. One musician played the note by ear, the other found the note relying on their visual mapping of the chord tones on the fretboard. I think these are distinct notions.

The only musician who plays by ear that way would be a singer right? To pull notes from air does not require the technical facility of finding them on a hunk of wood or metal.

Even someone with highly acute perfect pitch still needs to know where the notes are on their instrument of choice.

In short, I think you're getting too philosophical about this.

[Tal_175]

The only musician who plays by ear that way would be a singer right? To pull notes from air does not require the technical facility of finding them on a hunk of wood or metal.

Even someone with highly acute perfect pitch still needs to know where the notes are on their instrument of choice.

In short, I think you're getting too philosophical about this.

We are not talking about technical facility. The point is ear-instrument connection vs mind-instrument connection. Do you not see a distinction?

[AllanAllen]

I do not understand the difference.

[Tal_175]

I do not understand the difference.

OK, put a basic progression in the background. Don't think about the key or the chords. As you listen to it try to play what you hear as chord tones on your instrument by ear. Play simple melodies targeting chord tones. After that, check out the chords. Then visualize the arpeggio/chord shapes on your instrument. Now as you listen to progression make melodies using your visualization. The process is very different, is it not?

[Tal_175]

You need muscle memory to be able to play the instrument. The sheer amount of time one spends in one block is less important than consistent practice over a long period. It’s more beneficial to practice in 4 blocks of 15m doing this than 1 block of an hour. 12 blocks of 5m is even better if you can prioritise and have a good roadmap.

I like to sing the notes and speak the names of the intervals and notes as I play.

A far as mapping chord and scale construction goes - spend some time at a piano keyboard. It will give you perspective.

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I noticed that piano players make progress a lot faster than guitar players in terms of outlining the changes with chord tones (what Pat Metheny was talking about in the interview posted recently). In fact, maybe that's why many piano players insist on self-comping, lol. They practice this way and they subconsciously rely on their left hand to navigate the changes with their right hands. They make more progress in that area in a few months than some jazz guitarists do in a couple of decades. Life isn't fair.

I think some guitarists might be better of switching to piano if they want to pursue jazz.

[Tal_175]

I think someone who plays by ear just does it naturally without much visualization. Maybe the distinction is ear/physical feel, vs mental visual perception and theoretical concepts connected to the sounds to be played.

I use both. I use mostly the second as it helps with accuracy but takes more mental effort. But, I wouldn't be thinking or visualizing the fretboard to play a nursery rhyme

Christian was talking about muscle memory. The mind-instrument connection is mostly useful in the woodshed to build muscle memory (and aural connection) efficiently in my experience.

[joe2758]

dang i didnt delete my comment in time haha. But i was actually trying to reiterate your point, Tal, as I understood it. I probably took it wrong and I also jumped right into the convo

[Basshead]

Which Metheny interview please?

My dad told when I was 14 yo that if I remember from primary school music lessons, there is one semitone e/f and b/c the rest is a whole tone, semitone/one fret and whole tone/two frets, he have me a classical piece score and told me go figure out the notes while i watch soccer in the pub... and thats it man, a month later I was learning Czardas violin piece slowly, tico tico, tunes like that figuring out the notes string by string, looks hard but believe me at the end of the day learning to read music and the notes string by string is a million times faster than what other people do which is going around in circles for years.

[joe2758]

and sort of replying to Alan asking what is the difference

[joe2758]

Which Metheny interview please?

My dad told when I was 14 yo that if I remember from primary school music lessons, there is one semitone e/f and b/c the rest is a whole tone, semitone/one fret and whole tone/two frets, he have me a classical piece score and told me go figure out the notes while i watch soccer in the pub... and thats it man, a month later I was learning Czardas violin piece slowly, tico tico, tunes like that figuring out the notes string by string, looks hard but believe me at the end of the day learning to read music and the notes string by string is a million times faster than what other people do which is going around in circles for years.

Usually I would dismiss a comment like this, but you are a very good player so it must be legit

[Tal_175]

Which Metheny interview please?

My dad told when I was 14 yo that if I remember from primary school music lessons, there is one semitone e/f and b/c the rest is a whole tone, semitone/one fret and whole tone/two frets, he have me a classical piece score and told me go figure out the notes while i watch soccer in the pub... and thats it man, a month later I was learning Czardas violin piece slowly, tico tico, tunes like that figuring out the notes string by string, looks hard but believe me at the end of the day learning to read music and the notes string by string is a million times faster than what other people do which is going around in circles for years.

Starting around 13:26 mark into the interview:

[Basshead]

Oh thats not an interview, thats an old video, he is teaching a guy, wise words in there, was on YT long time ago, pure gold, classic sentences like...you know your problem...you sound like a guitar player LOL

Metheny lessons there: forget about chops and focus on tempo and groove, work on time feel and forget about notes, he plays on top and behind with the cymbal loop to ilustrate how to be aware of your own time, Brecker did not know everything about music but just had better time feel than most so he sounded best, period, get that really clear, is all about time, tempo, groove, feel, pocket...not about chops, scales, licks... love that old crappy video.

[joe2758]

"sentences like...you know your problem...you sound like a guitar player LOL"


a wise man once said:

I think some guitarists might be better of switching to piano if they want to pursue jazz.

[Basshead]

What that sentence mean IMO is that you got chops, licks and shit but tempo is crap, classic guitarist issue, specially decades ago, now drummers are way better, we all got loops, backing tracks, DAWs... I was like that

[joe2758]

I think "know what your problem is? you play like sh*t" would be better

[AllanAllen]

OK, put a basic progression in the background. Don't think about the key or the chords. As you listen to it try to play what you hear as chord tones on your instrument by ear. Play simple melodies targeting chord tones. After that, check out the chords. Then visualize the arpeggio/chord shapes on your instrument. Now as you listen to progression make melodies using your visualization. The process is very different, is it not?

I don't see it, what's the difference of me guessing it's a I VI II V and me knowing it's actually a III VI II V? One is technically wrong? Even then, does it sound wrong?

[Tal_175]

I don't see it, what's the difference of me guessing it's a I VI II V and me knowing it's actually a III VI II V? One is technically wrong? Even then, does it sound wrong?

There is no guessing in the first case. Can you play over a chord without first guessing what it is by just interacting with the sound? Can you hear some of the notes in the chord and instinctively (or aurally) find them on the fretboard? (If not right away, after a few trial and errors) Create melodies that target them? It can also be a tune that you solo over by ear.

[pamosmusic]

I have a hard time getting invested in arguments like this

[Tal_175]

It seems like some see playing by ear vs finding notes by fretboard visualization as a very obscure distinction conceptually. That's one of the beauties of the forum. You find out how different musicians make sense of musical processes differently.