Jazz Vocabulary

[Tal_175]

Which Metheny interview please?

My dad told when I was 14 yo that if I remember from primary school music lessons, there is one semitone e/f and b/c the rest is a whole tone, semitone/one fret and whole tone/two frets, he have me a classical piece score and told me go figure out the notes while i watch soccer in the pub... and thats it man, a month later I was learning Czardas violin piece slowly, tico tico, tunes like that figuring out the notes string by string, looks hard but believe me at the end of the day learning to read music and the notes string by string is a million times faster than what other people do which is going around in circles for years.

Starting around 13:26 mark into the interview:

[Basshead]

Oh thats not an interview, thats an old video, he is teaching a guy, wise words in there, was on YT long time ago, pure gold, classic sentences like...you know your problem...you sound like a guitar player LOL

Metheny lessons there: forget about chops and focus on tempo and groove, work on time feel and forget about notes, he plays on top and behind with the cymbal loop to ilustrate how to be aware of your own time, Brecker did not know everything about music but just had better time feel than most so he sounded best, period, get that really clear, is all about time, tempo, groove, feel, pocket...not about chops, scales, licks... love that old crappy video.

[joe2758]

"sentences like...you know your problem...you sound like a guitar player LOL"


a wise man once said:

I think some guitarists might be better of switching to piano if they want to pursue jazz.

[Basshead]

What that sentence mean IMO is that you got chops, licks and shit but tempo is crap, classic guitarist issue, specially decades ago, now drummers are way better, we all got loops, backing tracks, DAWs... I was like that

[joe2758]

I think "know what your problem is? you play like sh*t" would be better

[AllanAllen]

OK, put a basic progression in the background. Don't think about the key or the chords. As you listen to it try to play what you hear as chord tones on your instrument by ear. Play simple melodies targeting chord tones. After that, check out the chords. Then visualize the arpeggio/chord shapes on your instrument. Now as you listen to progression make melodies using your visualization. The process is very different, is it not?

I don't see it, what's the difference of me guessing it's a I VI II V and me knowing it's actually a III VI II V? One is technically wrong? Even then, does it sound wrong?

[Tal_175]

I don't see it, what's the difference of me guessing it's a I VI II V and me knowing it's actually a III VI II V? One is technically wrong? Even then, does it sound wrong?

There is no guessing in the first case. Can you play over a chord without first guessing what it is by just interacting with the sound? Can you hear some of the notes in the chord and instinctively (or aurally) find them on the fretboard? (If not right away, after a few trial and errors) Create melodies that target them? It can also be a tune that you solo over by ear.

[pamosmusic]

I have a hard time getting invested in arguments like this

[Tal_175]

It seems like some see playing by ear vs finding notes by fretboard visualization as a very obscure distinction conceptually. That's one of the beauties of the forum. You find out how different musicians make sense of musical processes differently.

[Christian Miller]

What I mean by "fretboard knowledge" is not just knowing these concepts but having a conscious mental picture of how they exist on the fretboard. I was contrasting that with playing by ear. Suppose one musician pre-hears and plays a note within a harmonic context, suppose that note happens to be the third of the chord-in-the-moment. Another musician in the same context knows what chord they are on, and wants to play the third of the chord and finds that note based on how they visualize that chord on the fretboard. They play the same note but their process couldn't be more different. One musician played the note by ear, the other found the note relying on their visual mapping of the chord tones on the fretboard. I think these are distinct notions.

I think this is an entirely hypothetical scenario that has nothing to with how people play music in practice.


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[Tal_175]

I think this is an entirely hypothetical scenario that has nothing to with how people play music in practice.

Surprised to hear that. I guess not every one experienced playing music purely by ear without thinking about the fretboard and instinctively going to the note you hear in your head, sort of like singing.

[Christian Miller]

I noticed that piano players make progress a lot faster than guitar players in terms of outlining the changes with chord tones (what Pat Metheny was talking about in the interview posted recently). In fact, maybe that's why many piano players insist on self-comping, lol. They practice this way and they subconsciously rely on their left hand to navigate the changes with their right hands. They make more progress in that area in a few months than some jazz guitarists do in a couple of decades. Life isn't fair.

I think some guitarists might be better of switching to piano if they want to pursue jazz.

Well piano is an easy instrument. The trade off is people expect you to play very complex and advanced high level stuff as a professional. The guitar is a bit harder so expectations are lower lol.

But we can all play arrangers piano. And if you go to music schools, this is something they encourage. There’s a simple reason for it - western musical theory (inc jazz) starts with the keyboard. Things occurs to me the piano that I wouldn’t think of guitar. And I can barely play lol.

[Christian Miller]

Surprised to hear that. I guess not every one experienced playing music purely by ear without thinking about the fretboard and instinctively going to the note you hear in your head, sort of like singing.

No I mean everyone has an aspects of three things you mentioned.

Well, a non-theory player might not know formally what a third on a chord is. But everyone has to link the ear to some physical understanding of the guitar. I would say 'shapes' and 'ears' go together, as does muscle memory, because after the most elementary level no-one plays music note by note - music happens in phrases. As you get better you can start to be more flexible within that.

It's all a bit academic, because we know how to learn music. It's just that people get a bit intimidated by that first step.

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[rpjazzguitar]

I think it's true that my solo may come out different if I wing it by ear vs think about chord names and substitutions. And, not typically better the latter way. In fact, if, during a solo, I start thinking about theory, the solo usually goes south right then.

OTOH, if the changes are unfamiliar enough, I use all that math to avoid clams. Not art, but, hopefully, not clams either.

But, my original question was about the definition and acquisition of "fretboard knowledge". This is a term being used in this thread without, as is common in musical discussions, an agreed-upon definition.

So, what is it that that hypothetical student is supposed to master in his year of working on fretboard knowledge?

I can vaguely imagine a player having a systemized, comprehensive approach to the guitar, but I can't define exactly what it should include or how, in the reality of life, one could learn a system in an organized way. For example, commonly played tunes are not played equally in every key and important enharmonic equivalents. People have favorite licks and sounds -- each of which is a kind of imperfection in the hypothetical system, if that makes any sense.

My prescription to the student would be learn to read and learn the notes in the chords, scales, arps you use. Then you can find whichever notes you want. At some point, though, you may need to play faster than you can think, so knowing some fingerings can help. As far as things like chord subs and reharm, to me, that's music not fretboard. You do that mentally and then you find the notes. But, most people don't do it this way, afaik.

[Tal_175]

No I mean everyone has an aspects of three things you mentioned.

Maybe there was a misunderstanding somewhere along the way. I wasn't saying that people are either 100% one or 100% the other.
I was making a distinction between two different skills which I thought was obvious.

- Ear-instrument connection: Developing an instinctive and instant sense of where to find the music in your head on the instrument. This is an unconscious process.

- Mind-instrument connection: Getting good at finding things on the instrument that you have a conscious knowledge of. Any where from mapping of chord tones to knowing where notes are by pitch name etc. So if you know the next chord is Fmaj7 and you know that the chord tones are F,A,C,E and you know the these notes on the instrument or by visual patterns of the major arpeggio.

As I was saying this distinction is particularly important in the woodshed. One can use either approach as a spring board for their musical development. For example one can focus on studying fretboard and how to visualize musical structures instantly (ie mind-instrument connection). If they practice playing these structure over tunes that also improves ear-instrument connection. But one can also go the opposite way and prioritize ear-instrument connection and perhaps acquire a mental patterns through that.

[rpjazzguitar]

Maybe there was misunderstanding somewhere along the way. I wasn't saying that people are either 100% one or 100% the other.
I was making a distinction between two different skills which I thought was obvious.

- Ear-instrument connection: Developing an instinctive and instant sense of where to find the music in your head on the instrument. This is an unconscious process.

- Mind-instrument connection: Getting good at finding things on the instrument that you have a conscious knowledge of. Any where from mapping of chord tones to knowing where notes are by pitch name etc. So if you know the next chord is Fmaj7 and you know that the chord tones are F,A,C,E and you know the these notes on the instrument or by visual patterns of the major arpeggio.

As I was saying this distinction is particularly important in the woodshed. One can use either approach as a spring board for their musical development. For example one can focus on studying fretboard and how to visualize musical structures instantly (ie mind-instrument connection). If they practice playing these structure over tunes that also improves ear-instrument connection. But one can also go the opposite way and prioritize ear-instrument connection and perhaps acquire a mental patterns through that.

I understand the point. But I still come back to the point. What exactly does it encompass?

[Tal_175]

I understand the point. But I still come back to the point. What exactly does it encompass?

Categorically everything that you mentally locate on the instrument, even licks. So if you learned a dominant lick that starts on the fifth and want to work on it in the context of a tune by applying it to every dominant, you would rely on your instrument-mind connection skills initially. You'll have to instantly locate the fifth of every dominant and execute a fingering that you've mentally constructed (you can also play it by ear once you found the fifth but maybe not). Gradually you'll hope to access it aurally during a performance.

I think your question is what sort of things that constitute developing command on the fretboard? I think that varies from musician to musician (or teacher to teacher). That Al Di Meola book I mentioned taught his view of what that means. That included memorizing multiple fingerings for a giving scale position as well as other things. Pat Metheny talked about the importance of chord tones. So he was telling his student in that video to get good at accessing important chord tones.

[AllanAllen]

I have a hard time getting invested in arguments like this

I still don't get what the actual point is.

I mean, I don't need to work on the ear-instrument connection at all if I just play songs I already know, or have iReal on my phone, which I do. Seems like the right move to me.

I'm not trying to pass an ear training course or show off my pitch recognition at parties.

[rpjazzguitar]

Categorically everything that you mentally locate on the instrument, even licks. So if you learned a dominant lick that starts on the fifth and want to work on it in the context of a tune by applying it to every dominant, you would rely on your instrument-mind connection skills initially. You'll have to instantly locate the fifth of every dominant and execute a fingering that you've mentally constructed (you can also play it by ear once you found the fifth but maybe not). Gradually you'll hope to access it aurally during a performance.

I think your question is what sort of things that constitute developing command on the fretboard? I think that varies from musician to musician (or teacher to teacher). That Al Di Meola book I mentioned taught his view of what that means. That included memorizing multiple fingerings for a giving scale position as well as other things. Pat Metheny talked about the importance of chord tones. So he was telling his student in that video to get good at accessing important chord tones.

So, your definition is not a fully circumscribed set of specific things to practice. I'm still not clear on what a student should do in a hypothetical year of getting "fretboard knowledge together".

Similarly, I'm not clear on what a player who has his "fretboard knowledge together" actually knows.

[James W]

Fretboard knowledge to me is not a finite thing. Because there are always new songs and pieces to learn which obviously means finding new things to do on the fretboard, mapping it out in new ways.

It's endless.

[Basshead]

I know the fretboard pretty well after years playing classical and flamenco music, reading scores, etc... and thats great but to me the only thing that really matter at the end of the day is time feel.
I recorded this album 2 years ago, I have improved a lot in some many ways since then, its all improvised, solos, bass, chords, all done in less than a week, even the mixing and mastering and when I listen back the only things that I hear that I dont like are small time feel/phrasing stuff, again, at the end of the day we all know scales, licks...you name it but the thing that separates Wes, Parker, Peterson, CC, Django, Scofield, etc... from the rest is time feel IMHO.

[Christian Miller]

Maybe there was misunderstanding somewhere along the way. I wasn't saying that people are either 100% one or 100% the other.
I was making a distinction between two different skills which I thought was obvious.

- Ear-instrument connection: Developing an instinctive and instant sense of where to find the music in your head on the instrument. This is an unconscious process.

- Mind-instrument connection: Getting good at finding things on the instrument that you have a conscious knowledge of. Any where from mapping of chord tones to knowing where notes are by pitch name etc. So if you know the next chord is Fmaj7 and you know that the chord tones are F,A,C,E and you know the these notes on the instrument or by visual patterns of the major arpeggio.

As I was saying this distinction is particularly important in the woodshed. One can use either approach as a spring board for their musical development. For example one can focus on studying fretboard and how to visualize musical structures instantly (ie mind-instrument connection). If they practice playing these structure over tunes that also improves ear-instrument connection. But one can also go the opposite way and prioritize ear-instrument connection and perhaps acquire a mental patterns through that.

Why not just sing F A C E while you are working on the mapping stuff?

I find it helps. In my experience the Aural memory is the longest lasting. I might not be able to remember where to put my fingers for a tune or piece I haven't played in an ages, but if I can hear it I can sort it out. So the aural side of it can really help with all that.

Working on Tenor banjo recently - with its different tuning system - really underlined this for me. It's not a separate thing at all. I think people just get that idea because that stuff easier to write in books and articles. And some people do practice it that way, I know I used to. But I see only disadvantages in separating things from the ear.

After all, if you can sing a major scale, you should be able to work out fingerings for it on guitar, given a bit of trial and error. With some solid basic principles of technique, you can develop consistent fingerings etc. And you can start working on the whole neck that way.

It never worked as well for me when I was just trying to memorise patterns of dots, numbers or note names. I did that when I was younger. But it's easier if you hear what you are trying to do. Singing is a good way to connect with it.

[Christian Miller]

I still don't get what the actual point is.

I mean, I don't need to work on the ear-instrument connection at all if I just play songs I already know, or have iReal on my phone, which I do. Seems like the right move to me.

I'm not trying to pass an ear training course or show off my pitch recognition at parties.

The aim as I see it is to be a musician rather than simply a guitar operator. But I'm kind of dork, so there you go. Honestly, there's no point to any of it.

I would say that people playing by numbers without hearing what they are doing tends to lack swing, conviction and musicality. The way to improve those things is to work on your ear, and in my opinion that's best done by learning music by ear. It's no big mystery.

[AllanAllen]

The aim as I see it is to be a musician rather than simply a guitar operator. But I'm kind of dork, so there you go. Honestly, there's no point to any of it.

I would say that people playing by numbers without hearing what they are doing tends to lack swing, conviction and musicality. The way to improve those things is to work on your ear, and in my opinion that's best done by learning music by ear. It's no big mystery.

Well, the best advice is always ignored. Learn songs by ear, manipulate lines you like into other changes and play with other people.

For some reason that’s pushed aside to learn all the scales and their mode names, so you can say which ones to play over chord inversions that give you tennis elbow.

[Tal_175]

Not sure where the discussion is going now. When I say mind-instrument connection (or fretboard knowledge) I was talking about what you refer to as command of neck in relation to BH type of approach.
PS I'm not looking for solutions, I just think this relates to vocabulary in important ways.

It's kind of hard to apply to the guitar at first. You need to have a really good command of the neck compared to most guitarists. On keys its much less of an issue.