Jazz Vocabulary

[rpjazzguitar]

I remember trading solos with a teacher who is a great jazz player.

When it was his turn to solo, with the first two bars all Bbmaj7, he played D (3rd string, 7th fret). Just that one note. But timed so perfectly it sounded awesome.

I recall a Jimmy Bruno lesson video where he burned just playing the notes of Bbmaj7 against a Bbmaj7. In that case it was both melody and time that were at the highest level. Note choice couldn't have been any simpler.

So, I'm in complete agreement that time-feel is the most important, and elusive, thing. You can make all kinds of simple stuff sound great with great time-feel. And, no amount of complexity will overcome bad time feel. I said it, but I shouldn't have. It goes without saying.

But, this is a thread partly about fretboard knowledge. I gather, from the discussion, that you should know quite a bit about the fretboard, but it's not universally agreed exactly what you should know.

At one extreme, you don't think about anything but sound and your fingers find the notes in your head.

At the other extreme, in the practice room, you use a wide variety of devices to find things to play and figure out how to play them. There's no list of devices maybe because you'd have to draw a line under "enough" and it's never enough.

And, you don't want to do the math thing on the bandstand. That's for practice.

My preference is winging things by ear until the music gets to the point where I'm risking playing clams. Then I turn to my "fretboard knowledge" which is that I know the notes in the chords, scales and arps I use and I know where they are on the fingerboard. But, that said, I also know, by geometry, a few licks, a few patterns and a fair number of arps. All employed to avoid clams.

[Christian Miller]

Well, the best advice is always ignored. Learn songs by ear, manipulate lines you like into other changes and play with other people.

For some reason that’s pushed aside to learn all the scales and their mode names, so you can say which ones to play over chord inversions that give you tennis elbow.

It’s because it’s quite intimidating at first for many. Also people know they ‘should’ be doing it, which creates resistance. I was like that. But when I got into it - I was kicking myself for not doing it earlier.


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[Christian Miller]

Not sure where the discussion is going now. When I say mind-instrument connection (or fretboard knowledge) I was talking about what you refer to as command of neck in relation to BH type of approach.
PS I'm not looking for solutions, I just think this relates to vocabulary in important ways.

Barry Harris was a pianist and his teachings require a keyboard like grasp of the instrument.

This takes a while to build up.

If someone is set on going into a cave and learn scales for three years I doubt anything I would say would dissuade them, but I’m not going to tell someone who wants to get into playing a bit of jazz like Grant Green or Wes or whoever to do that because there’s more accessible ways into actually playing the music than Barry’s ideas and this kind of fretboard knowledge isn’t really necessary at first. You can, in fact, let the guitar be the guitar for a while.

The important skills of jazz are not an ‘complete’ knowledge of the neck (though that is helpful for any advanced player of the instrument) but rather ears, vocabulary, swing and a serviceable repertoire. That’s the priority. We can keep the other stuff bubbling away on the back burner. It’ll cook and it’ll have a context based on actual music.

The problem is (and this was true of me) many are drawn into jazz through the promise of improvisatory freedom and the appeal of theory and ideas (I kind of feel the Barry stuff is becoming the new theoretical obsession tbh.) But that’s not how you learn to sound good. That’s what you might choose to work on after you already sound good.

None of which is to say people shouldn’t practice scales. Or that you shouldn’t learn the neck, or Barry, or whatever.

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[Basshead]

Hey fellas, do you really think Barry Harris method is the best to learn swing/bebop music? if so, at least is more legit than other elitist schools which use chord scale and endless books material?

[AllanAllen]

I didn’t do BH or college. So of course my option should be highly regarded.

I say you need to learn Charlie Parker heads to learn bebop and Lester Young solos for swing.

[Tal_175]

Well piano is an easy instrument. The trade off is people expect you to play very complex and advanced high level stuff as a professional. The guitar is a bit harder so expectations are lower lol.

But we can all play arrangers piano. And if you go to music schools, this is something they encourage. There’s a simple reason for it - western musical theory (inc jazz) starts with the keyboard. Things occurs to me the piano that I wouldn’t think of guitar. And I can barely play lol.

Maybe you played with some top pro pianists but the ones I've played with generally don't do anything more complex than what a guitarist might do. Some of them were/are good pianists who can play convincing solos in up-swing tempos. Sort of like small gig, vineyard type level. If anything I might be more likely to venture into more "complex" territories like moving chords, basslines, altered harmony etc. not because I am better then them but because I need an outlet for things I like exploring.

So at the level these pianists are playing—which, realistically, is where many amateur jazz guitarists aim to be—I actually think piano might be a more accessible and less "nerdy" instrument than guitar for some folks.

[Christian Miller]

Maybe you played with some top pro pianists but the ones I've played with generally don't do anything more complex than what a guitarist might do. Some of them were/are good pianists who can play convincing solos in up-swing tempos. Sort of like small gig, vineyard type level. If anything I might be more likely to venture into more "complex" territories like moving chords, basslines, altered harmony etc. not because I am better then them but because I am need an outlet for things I like exploring.

So at the level these pianists are playing—which, realistically, is where many amateur jazz guitarists aim to be—I actually think piano might be a more accessible and less "nerdy" instrument than guitar for some folks.

Was thinking about Chopin and Bach fugues etc. Solo piano playing in general.

Example - a Bach two part invention is an intermediate piece for piano. It’s a significant achievement to be able to play one on a single guitar.

This goes over into jazz solo playing etc.

The band styles are generally simpler. But even then ….

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[ragman1]

Jazz Vocabulary

Well, according to Miles Davis it was m----- f----- this and m----- f----- that

[kris]

The development of jazz teaching has caused that musicians do not wander in the fog and play more consciously.

[Tal_175]

The development of jazz teaching has caused that musicians do not wander in the fog and play more consciously.

There is something inherently nerdy about wanting to learn an instrument except for guitar. That's why non-guitar students learn to read music, learn to play scales in 3rds, 4ths, triad inversions etc. You can't do that with guitar students. You have to make them feel like rock stars all the time or they'll lose focus. Quick results are needed to satisfy the image conscious incentives. They wanted to learn guitar because the world has promised them that one day they'll be on the stage playing for fans throwing bras at them. So you have to feed them with one cool lick after another. Nerds are ostracized minorities in the guitar world.

[pamosmusic]

There is something inherently nerdy about wanting to learn an instrument except for guitar. That's why non-guitar students learn how to read, learn to play scales in 3rds, 4ths, triad inversions etc. You can't do that with guitar students. You have to make them feel like rock stars all the time or they'll lose focus. Quick results are needed to satisfy the image conscious incentives. They wanted to learn guitar because the world has promised them that one they they'll be on the stage playing for girls throwing bra's at them. So you have to feed them with one cool lick after another. Nerds are ostracized minorities in the guitar world.

lol … remind me again how many students you had this week?

[joe2758]

Nerds are ostracized minorities in the guitar world.

I was going to say they are only ostracized if they are doing the nerd activities to a degree that keeps them from practicing and improving. But, then I remembered the members here whom are nerds and can play VERY well and still get sh*t about nerding out

[GuyBoden]

The world has promised them that they'll be on the stage playing for girls throwing bra's at them.

Yes please...........................

[Tal_175]

lol … remind me again how many students you had this week?

The right amount that would keep me sane.
Obviously it was a bit tongue in cheek post. I was thinking about the younger learners (including my nephew who is in band now). I've been people learning guitar all my life.

[Tal_175]

Yes please...........................

I am utterly disappointed with the world's inability to deliver on its promises.

[AllanAllen]

Bro, you don't need to project so hard. You are a guitar nerd, you are using a defunct internet platform to talk about jazz guitar. That's 2 layers for nerdy niche.

[pamosmusic]

The right amount that would keep me sane.
Obviously it was a bit tongue in cheek post. I was thinking about the younger learners (including my niece who is in band now). I've been people learning guitar all my life.

Not really an answer. And also you’re going to want to read that post back to see why having it be about your niece doesn’t make it a less weird thing to say

[Tal_175]

Not really an answer. And also you’re going to want to read that post back to see why having it be about your niece doesn’t make it a less weird thing to say

Oh it wasn't about my nephew (only). I meant nephew not niece. Sorry for the broken English.

[GuyBoden]

Fretboard knowledge to me is not a finite thing. Because there are always new songs and pieces to learn which obviously means finding new things to do on the fretboard, mapping it out in new ways.

It's endless.

I remember Allan Holdsworth stating that he saw the notes he needed light up on the whole fretboard. (Other players have said this too.)

[grahambop]

I started with classical guitar at age 12 and only got into the rock guitar bra-throwing fantasy phase a few years later.

So I guess I'm a nerd!

[Tal_175]

I remember Allan Holdsworth stating that he saw the notes he needed light up on the whole fretboard. (Other players have said this too.)

I think George Benson also said it.

[joe2758]

I started with classical guitar at age 12 and only got into the rock guitar bra-throwing fantasy phase a few years later.

So I guess I'm a nerd!

When I was in music school for classical guitar I was sitting in a sort of common area doing some homework. There was a lady there mid to late 60s who said "you're one of the music students aren't you" with a huge beaming smile, it was just a guess I didn't have my guitar. I said yes, and she let a sort of sentimental sigh and looked up toward the ceiling and said "that is SO wonderful, I know you MUST play violin." I said "no mam, guitar." and she gave me the most disappointed, partly angry even, look as if I had been posing as something I wasn't.

[Basshead]

Ok lets focus on vocabulary for a second, Im learning this billies bounce melody and solo, bit a bit, singing every short phrase and then Im focusing on comping this tune too, theres some Benson transcription out there with great ideas too. So the question is, will you learn just one phrase per day and play it in different keys or try to learn first the whole solo and analyze which ideas, passing tones, enclosures Parker is using, whats your method?

[joe2758]

The point of learning a whole solo is for timing and technique practice, for vocabulary do one phrase at a time.

either way you could learn the whole thing and divided up after or, or learning the phrases and put it together after.

[Tal_175]

Ok lets focus on vocabulary for a second, Im learning this billies bounce melody and solo, bit a bit, singing every short phrase and then Im focusing on comping this tune too, theres some Benson transcription out there with great ideas too. So the question is, will you learn just one phrase per day and play it in different keys or try to learn first the whole solo and analyze which ideas, passing tones, enclosures Parker is using, whats your method?

You have to be a special kind of genius to be able to learn one phrase a day in a way that you can retain it and use them during performances. The rate is a lot slower for most of us. People have different approaches. Some people keep a lick library and work on integrating the licks by inserting them into solos. Those with nerdier tendencies may analyze the lick in terms of its basic building blocks (arpeggios, passing notes, chromaticism) and apply it to every scale degree (like go up an arpeggio, come down scale with a chromatic note in the end etc.).