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Do you play Dexterity for dexterity? Ahahahahahahahahhaha
Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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11-10-2025 06:27 PM
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I would strongly advise working on Charlie Christian etc first. Originally Posted by Strat-itis
It's kind of hard to apply to the guitar at first. You need to have a really good command of the neck compared to most guitarists. On keys its much less of an issue.
I also don't think it works without input from the music itself, be it records or going to the workshop with Barry giving you the lines - so I'd start with licks.
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Ding ding ding Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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I find it helps me get in shape before hiking. I'm a Bach-Parker... Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Ok, I watched all your other IG videos, and I take back everything I said because I thought you were beginner. (Sorry about that.) Clearly, you have great time and technique. Originally Posted by Basshead
Thanks Brent but I think I can handle it
is all based in the same chord boxes as you mention, the swing feel and phrasing are the important things IMO. Ima not memorize a whole solo for now but I like to play and sing small bits of it in different keys and try to start using them in my flamenco/bluesy compositions.
But if you want something nuts, lets go hardcore with this one, probably the best bebop improv ever
but you are right that its better to start with CC and then move slowly to Wes or Parker, I spent too much time with the whole chord scale scam, which is ok for some things, but this is a completely different minset, more chord tone based, small clear phrases, bluesy vibes, perfect!
You sound kinda legit on the tune The Chicken, and it seems like you already know how to learn and apply bluesy licks. You seem to know the form and changes. You seem to know your fretboard because you can play without looking at it. Honestly, I don't think I can be of any more help.
You did mention some problem about not being able to say much when you start playing fast. Well, I don't know if bebop is the right solution for your problem because this music encourages you to play technically with lots of notes and high speeds. Bebop might reinforce your problem.
Perhaps try playing more melodically than technically? To do this, maybe listen to music before bebop? Earlier pop tunes are full of incredible lyrical melodies that connect very well with audiences. You can lift a few of these melodies and use them as the basis for licks.
For example, the opening 5 notes of the song, Have You Met Miss Jones (1937), outlines an F6 chord: A, then down to D, down to C, up to D, down to C.
You can keep all 5 notes, then vary its rhythm and you have something more energetic/jazzy.
Myself, I like to distill and simplify melodies. So instead of ADCDC, I just think 3 notes: A for 2 beats, D for 2 beats, C for 4 beats. This way, I have a bit more breathing room to add jazz rhythms to each distilled melodic note.
So I'm using the structure of the melody as my guide. Then I'm adding extra rhythms. This lets the listener follow along with the song so they are not lost, and it's simple to play for myself. No more theory, no more scales, no more arpeggios, no need to chase the changes. Just uncomplicated trad jazz style playing.
Maybe by doing this, now you will have something to say in your music?
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Cheers guys, regarding classical pieces, I think they are great, not only Adam Rogers, I heard Metheny, Stern and others recommending those violin pieces.
Sorry if I did not explain myself correctly, what I meant when I said that is easier for someone like me to start playing outside using minor melodic scales, diminished, modes, etc... cause I got the fingering down, I spent too much time probably playing all that stuff in 12 keys, etc... and then I realize I was going the wrong way cause I ended sounding more like a fusion guy, which I dont really like much, so when I started digging then I figure out that Parker, Peterson, Wes, etc... did not practice that way and I really like how they build their lines, sounds like music to me, the other thing sounds more like I can move my fingers really quick but I dont say much about the harmony or tell any story.
Hope this helps.
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Sounds sensible. If you want to sound like a bebop/hard bop style player, it's all about the idiom and the specifics of the style. I think that's best learned by attentive listening and singing and playing what you hear. Not just solos either - a tune like Along Came Betty will teach you a tremendous amount about bebop language, and you can play it on gigs or at jams. Originally Posted by Basshead
Modern styles - like fusion as you say, but much modern jazz in general - can be more "theory rooted" (i.e. chord scales normally) - but all these people seem to know their bop stuff. It's the bedrock of modern jazz language. This stuff even crops up in Holdsworth to some extent. If you learn how jazz phrasing flows, then it's a lot easier to turn things like chord scales into convincing jazz.
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Don't learn solos from tabs. Originally Posted by Basshead
Thanks Brent but I think I can handle it is all based in the same chord boxes as you mention, the swing feel and phrasing are the important things IMO. Ima not memorize a whole solo for now but I like to play and sing small bits of it in different keys and try to start using them in my flamenco/bluesy compositions.
But if you want something nuts, lets go hardcore with this one, probably the best bebop improv ever but you are right that its better to start with CC and then move slowly to Wes or Parker, I spent too much time with the whole chord scale scam, which is ok for some things, but this is a completely different minset, more chord tone based, small clear phrases, bluesy vibes, perfect!
It might seem perverse to say, because it takes longer, but it builds your musicianship and that's way more important. Playing from tabs is a shortcut. Things learned by ear are much richer. For instance - the phrasing with which Parker plays things is as important as the notes themselves.
If you want to be a strong musician, it's important to get away from tabs as much as possible. Focus on the ears #1 priority. Reading is useful too.
Aside from that, if it were me I'd take this and start working on small chunks on different tunes to internalise the language into my own playing.
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build lines = watch tilf barry harris (youtube)
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Again, I wouldn't recommend this at this stage. See above. Originally Posted by brent.h
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I understand, get stuff from tabs feels like cheating but if you get a short lick, sing it and play it in different keys then I think is a decent complete exercise but yeah, I transcribed some Miles and Gran Green solos, never memorize it, just pick it by ear and it is much more musical.
I know Barry Harris and Ive watched that channel you mention few times, the other day they did that video with open studio and it was not the frist time that I see all those options for a D7, I can play most of that stuff slowly but when it comes to do some enclosures with 4 note arps and going back to the third as bass players do then it gets pretty brainy to me but puts you in place with one chord in a second, nice reality check.
Classical wise, if you analyze pieces like tico tico, turquish march, czardas... you can see where enclosures come from IMHO
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Just curious, when you were playing that solo on The Chicken, could you actually hear/sing everything before you played it? Did the music come from your ears first or did it come 'automatically' from your fingers?
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Cool, sounds like you are doing the right sort of stuff. I'll shudup. Originally Posted by Basshead
I understand, get stuff from tabs feels like cheating but if you get a short lick, sing it and play it in different keys then I think is a decent complete exercise but yeah, I transcribed some Miles and Gran Green solos, never memorize it, just pick it by ear and it is much more musical.
I know Barry Harris and Ive watched that channel you mention few times, the other day they did that video with open studio and it was not the frist time that I see all those options for a D7, I can play most of that stuff slowly but when it comes to do some enclosures with 4 note arps and going back to the third as bass players do then it gets pretty brainy to me but puts you in place with one chord in a second, nice reality check.
Classical wise, if you analyze pieces like tico tico, turquish march, czardas... you can see where enclosures come from IMHO
The Barry stuff has been most useful to me in conjunction with looking at music such as heads and solos. It works very well for that, which is no surprise because that's how Barry came up with it.
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Great question, I didnt wanted to play at that jam, I only slept 3 hours that night, my friend told me to play and I almost never played chicken with guitar, always with bass (I used to play bass a lot) so I was basically surviving and improvising like dont know what Im doing plus I hate strats, the strap was a bit low... not really in my confort zone, being said that, yeah I can not scat sing that random solo, I have practiced a lot to sing everything I play but really slow, intervals, triads, chords, scales, chord tones following standards, melodies, riffs, etc... but always bit a bit and slow, I can only scat sing for a solo if its based on a scale with maybe a couple of passing tones, like that Barney Kessel old video or singing melodies with different modes against a pedal bass note so you hear the color of the mode (funtional/emotional ear training) but NOPE, I can not sing that solo and if you can hear it Im using chord tones, lydian dominant, some minor pentatonic over C7 specially, major penta over Bb7 too, but yeah it is more brainy than ear driven plus normally I try to think only in groove/pocket, Dizzy style, rhythm first.
Hope this makes sense, again, that chicken video is not my best, probably is about 65% what I can do in a better situation, that same day I played Sowhat, cantaloupe and chamaleon in other jam with a PRS guitar and it was much better but I dont have a video of that.
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Ok yeah so maybe start singing small 2-5 note phrases from CC, Prez, or Bird. Keep collecting all these small singable phrases. Get maybe 10-20. This will take a year (or longer). Don't worry about how long it takes.
Then sometimes when you practise, try to connect and combine these small pieces to make longer lines. Keep trying and failing. Always be singing all the time. One day, you will suddenly be able to hear and connect lots of things. You will even create new phrases on the spot while playing.Last edited by brent.h; 11-11-2025 at 08:09 AM.
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I have been working on forum member Rob MacKillop’s Complete Bach Cello Suites: Arranged for Plectrum Guitar. It is a great book printed in nice clear legible standard notation. I find the Cello Suites to be much more accessible to me then the Solo Violin Partitas and Sonatas. Originally Posted by Basshead
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Yeah, Ima start singing short bits slowly to stop playing too much and saying nothing as you can see in my latest IG video improv over Impressions, not my best to be honest but the issue is clear, I got more chops than ears
InstagramLast edited by Basshead; 11-11-2025 at 09:50 AM.
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Lol grass is always greener on the other side. I wish i had more chops.
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I am curious, then why not ask the student to spend a year getting the fretboard together? A teacher can provide a fretboard organization and a pedagogical plan that facilitates gradual progress. It'd be an immensely useful foundation for everything they'll do for the rest of their lives in their musical journey. I believe fretboard skills often hinder many jazz learners. A good teacher can save a student a lot of time in that regard. I always wonder why people don't prioritize the fretboard more. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
What transcribing licks teaches, as you said, is that a lot of jazz lines are made up of scales, arpeggios, and other simple building blocks. The only barrier to writing one's own licks from these building blocks, a la Barry Harris or Joe Elliot is fretboard fluency. Would you not agree?
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I would imagine he’d probably advise getting the fretboard together while you learn the Charlie Christian. Originally Posted by Tal_175
Lots of Charlie Christian sitting in pentatonic and major scale shapes.
Obviously it would be advantageous to have the fretboard together, but most people will want to play some music while they get it together. Generally we have to work on a couple things at once for balance and just for what people will generally stomach at once
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What exactly does "getting the fretboard together" entail?
I'm guessing that it's usually learning patterns based on the CAGED system, or something like that, but I don't understand exactly what constitutes "together" from that point of view.
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Christian mentioned that most guitarists do not have the necessary fretboard fluency for Barry Harris approach to learning improvisation. So this is not just learning patterns in abstract but being able to apply building blocks to create phrases and connect them through the changes on the fly. So Barry Harris would say something like go up a 1235 from the fifth then play the scale down to the third of the next chord with a half note on the seventh etc. You are expected to build such phrases over any chord change fairly quickly. Of course the goal is to get good at building your own phrases over tunes using these melodic building blocks. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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I think getting better at fretboard fluency requires discipline, focus and a dedicated practice approach. It often means temporarily putting less focus on other things. It's not uncommon for serious students to make that a deliberate priority for extended periods of time. But of course you have to meet students where they are. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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1) The main answer is I don't learn like that. Now, other people might like that way of learning, and there's some (culty IMO) teachers who demand that sort of thing for their students - but I think that if you get into the mindset of learning a bunch of stuff that supports music but not actually doing music at the same time, you won't actually get around to any music. Originally Posted by Tal_175
People are always waiting to be ready, then. But that's not healthy IMO. You can spend a lifetime waiting for stuff. I think it sets up bad psychology.
We can play C Jam blues NOW, while at the same time working on stuff for the future.
Maybe it's an appropriate for degree level students - 'you must play no music until you rebuild your technique by practicing these exercises'. Old school - you do hear odd stuff like that. And some people do need to rebuild their technique ... but even then I think it's a bad way to handle things..... Conservatoires are awash with bad mental health anyway. We can walk and chew gum at the same time.
I also hate the idea of being the sort of Guru gatekeeper that says 'yes padwan, now you have spent a year learning the scales/mopping the floor, now you are ready to play C Jam Blues'.
I think I'd always foreground actually doing music, with whatever means you have at your disposal. I would always rather start with music and let the music teach you. Who actually wants to practice scales for a year? I mean, maybe some people lol. I'm not sure if they are the most musical.
None of which is to say that you shouldn't learn drills, patterns, fingering positions. People should know that stuff. If you study with me, I will put you through the wringer on that stuff. But it will be calibrated to your level, and that's not all I will do with you. And the Barry Harris stuff is great, but it isn't year zero tabula rasa, how to play jazz 101, in my opinion, especially on guitar. And I got that from the way the classes were in terms of difficulty - it was a roast - and also from my own issues with trying to teach it to students. There are more accessible ways to get started, and they can be expanded into the Barry stuff quite organically.
At the end of the day, Barry Harris is a way for people who can already play a bit of jazz to extend their improvisational and harmonic fluency within the bebop style. That's it.
2) Most guitarists are just used to being told where to put their fingers. The main thing for most guitarists is to get them away from things like tab and get them into hearing and playing music. Scales can be like that too. Barry Harris can become yet another system where people think they can math their way into playing bop, and it doesn't work. You need to be a musician.
Another way of putting it. You have two main aspects in this game
1) be a musician
2) operate the instrument
I think you need a balance of the two as you develop.Last edited by Christian Miller; 11-11-2025 at 06:39 PM.
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I have not found it to be a fixed target. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
The thing I would tend to emphasise these days is being able to play a given musical phrase in different places on the neck, along strings, across strings, etc etc. (A scale, arpeggio or pattern is a type of phrase.) That's something one can do while learning music, and you develop flexibility.
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