Jazz Vocabulary

[Tal_175]

I gonna say something controversial which is something I never do. There is no such thing as jazz vocabulary other than 8th note and triplet heavy lines that outline chords with a certain rhythmic feel and accent patterns. These lines of course have voice-led continuity. You can just play scales up and down this way, it'll sound like jazz for a couple bars but then it'll get predictable. So transcriptions are useful for finding a variety melodic ideas that are good vehicles for this rhythmic feel. If you try to use wailing rock ballad lines as jazz vocabulary for example, there won't be rhythmic and harmonic content in the lines to facilitate the right feel for the style. Actually both Christian and rpjazzguitar said similar things already I guess.

There is such a thing as bebop vocabulary in terms of melodic style on the other hand. But different players have had varying degrees of it. Some players started out with lots of bebop vocabulary but used it a lot less later on, like Miles, Sonny Rollins, John Coltrane. Sonny Stitt always had it. Joe Pass used quite a bit of bebop vocabulary but Wes didn't as much (he was more hardbop and modal to my ears). In fact, Wes is a good example. If you transcribe a bar of a Wes solo, you'll likely find that it's a fairly straight forward application of arpeggios and scales (not even much chromaticism). It could be the most beautiful solo you ever heard but not because he played one killer lick after another. He always had an overarching melodic continuity that was almost compositional (but perhaps more abstract than a pop tune). Both Wes and Joe Pass used motivic ideas, sequences etc. But they always had that feel.

[pamosmusic]

I gonna say something controversial which is something I never do.

[pamosmusic]

There is such a thing as bebop vocabulary in terms of melodic style on the other hand. But different players have had varying degrees of it. Some players started out with lots of bebop vocabulary but used it a lot less later on, like Miles, Sonny Rollins, John Coltrane. Sonny Stitt always had it.

Hard to say this super firmly because some of these guys were involved in the active birth and development of bebop vocabulary.

Stitt would be a good case for someone who found it and kept it.

Wes didn't as much (he was more hardbop and modal to my ears). In fact, Wes is a good example. If you transcribe a bar of a Wes solo, you'll likely find that it's a fairly straight forward application of arpeggios and scales (not even much chromaticism). It could be the most beautiful solo you ever heard but not because he played one killer lick after another. He always had an overarching melodic continuity that was almost compositional (but perhaps more abstract than a pop tune). Both Wes and Joe Pass used motivic ideas, sequences etc. But they always had that feel.

Yeah this has been my experience of Wes too. I’ve always thought of him as pretty idiosyncratic but, reading this, it’s kind of striking how little standard fare bebop vocab is in your typical Wes solo

[Basshead]

True but a couple of questions, if I want to sound like Wes I guess I should spend some time with CC and CP ash he probably did right?

And whats your fav Wes solo ever?

[pamosmusic]

True but a couple of questions, if I want to sound like Wes I guess I should spend some time with CC and CP ash he probably did right?

sure. Also spend time with Wes.

And whats your fav Wes solo ever?

[Tal_175]

Hard to choose. Anything from the Wes Montgomery Trio album.

[Christian Miller]

True but a couple of questions, if I want to sound like Wes I guess I should spend some time with CC and CP ash he probably did right?

And whats your fav Wes solo ever?

Possibly No Blues from Smokin' at the Half Note?

It changes.

[Christian Miller]

Hard to choose. Anything from the Wes Montgomery Trio album.

Another example of a guitar tone with a great sense of space in the room and no reverb (probs bleed from another forum)

Leakage through the mics probs. Sounds great.

[pamosmusic]

Possibly No Blues from Smokin' at the Half Note?

It changes.

That solo rules.

Also Unit 7 from Smokin.

Also Four on Six from Smokin.

Also Impressions from Smokin.

[PMB]

Possibly No Blues from Smokin' at the Half Note?

Definitely up there. Incredible groove and narrative with telepathic support from the Wynton Kelly Trio.

[Tal_175]

I hear the bebop vocabulary as having a cheeky, up-beat playfulness reminiscent of New Orleans jazz but not to the same extend. The later generation straight ahead players (like Wes Montgomery or Ed Bickert) don't have as much of that. As a player I am more drawn towards the latter nowadays.

[CliffR]

sure. Also spend time with Wes.

Nice!

I'd not heard this version before. But I am familiar with George Benson's solo over Misty, which I now realise is very much inspired by Wes':

[Christian Miller]

That solo rules.

Also Unit 7 from Smokin.

Also Four on Six from Smokin.

Also Impressions from Smokin.

Probably just Smokin’


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[pamosmusic]

Probably just Smokin’


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Truly that album is insane.

When I REALLY think about, I honestly haven’t listened to much Wes.

Incredible Jazz Guitar
Boss Guitar
Full House
Smokin

but I have in all seriousness probably listened to Smokin top to bottom 500 times. Not including repeated listenings for transcribing and stuff.

[PMB]

In fact, Wes is a good example. If you transcribe a bar of a Wes solo, you'll likely find that it's a fairly straight forward application of arpeggios and scales (not even much chromaticism). It could be the most beautiful solo you ever heard but not because he played one killer lick after another. He always had an overarching melodic continuity that was almost compositional (but perhaps more abstract than a pop tune). Both Wes and Joe Pass used motivic ideas, sequences etc. But they always had that feel.

Exhibit A: Days of Wine and Roses from 'Boss Guitar'.

[Basshead]

Full house is insane, time feel is like flying or something.

BTW since I started posting those homey videos playing some of my flamenco/jazzy compositions, bossas and stuff a couple of people ask me about lessons, I never did that, skype or zoom? how much should I charge?

[pamosmusic]

Full house is insane, time feel is like flying or something.

BTW since I started posting those homey videos playing some of my flamenco/jazzy compositions, bossas and stuff a couple of people ask me about lessons, I never did that, skype or zoom? how much should I charge?

brace yourself for a wild ride:

How much to charge for guitar lessons?

[Basshead]

Thanks Peter, I guess $50 per hour seems fair, is true that in the US thats not much but here in Spain more than 30 euros per hour you have to be in the champions league, inflation wise...we all should be getting 3x that but thats another topic, if they pay you with gold or bitcoin...

[AllanAllen]

If you want to make money, start a top 40 country band or a Taylor Swift tribute act.

[Basshead]

I used to teach mixing online via zoom, it was not bad actually, the students could share their screen, pro tools, plugins... so I can actually explain every single parameter etc but guitar online? not sure how that works, never tried.

[Christian Miller]

I like the implication that making lots of money is really easy and the only thing stopping us is our unreasonable obsession with jazz.

[AllanAllen]

I like the implication that making lots of money is really easy and the only thing stopping us is our unreasonable obsession with jazz.

It's not helping. I just don't want some 20 year old to have an expectation that they can make it on jazz gigs alone. The romanticized idea of professional musician is pretty far removed from reality. There aren't a lot of people supporting themselves by practicing 8 hours in the day and gigging all night. Unless the gig is Postmates or UberEats.

[pamosmusic]

I used to teach mixing online via zoom, it was not bad actually, the students could share their screen, pro tools, plugins... so I can actually explain every single parameter etc but guitar online? not sure how that works, never tried.

I've been teaching 20 or so students a week almost exclusively on Zoom. It takes some work and there's a learning curve but I like it a lot.

[Basshead]

Interesting, teaching online could be a nice side hustle.

I was travelling yesterday so I spent some time listening to CH and Wes and yeah is true that Wes sounds less outside, he uses a lot what I used to call the superarpeggio, like c triad over Dm7 kinda stuff, or Cmaj7 arp over a D7...that sound and the thumb makes everything sound round, Abercrombie used to play with thumb too, fat sound.

[Basshead]

I just wanted to say thanks guys, reading this thread again today and great info here

Resume: Listen, transcribe short phrases, sing them, play them in different keys, start applying those ideas over backing tracks, focus on CC before moving to Wes, Burrel, Kessel...


Cheers