Jazz Vocabulary

[pamosmusic]

The point of learning a whole solo is for timing and technique practice, for vocabulary do one phrase at a time.

either way you could learn the whole thing and divided up after or, or learning the phrases and put it together after.

I would mostly agree with this.

You have to be a special kind of genius to be able to learn one phrase a day in a way that you can retain it and use them during performances. The rate is a lot slower for most of us.

and this

[AllanAllen]

Ok lets focus on vocabulary for a second, Im learning this billies bounce melody and solo, bit a bit, singing every short phrase and then Im focusing on comping this tune too, theres some Benson transcription out there with great ideas too. So the question is, will you learn just one phrase per day and play it in different keys or try to learn first the whole solo and analyze which ideas, passing tones, enclosures Parker is using, whats your method?

You are doing too much too fast. Learn just the head, then grab phrases from it. 12 bars of Parker is plenty of vocabulary. When you learn 3-4 of his heads you'll see things repeating.

Reading a head and 2 solos, you'll just be turning gears and not retaining anything. Probably good for sight reading exercise, but not for growing your vocab.

Transcribe by ear, you are just reading someone else's homework with these youtube transcriptions.

[mr. beaumont]

Yeah, it sounds like you might be trying to fit a year's worth of work into a few weeks.

Which, means you're excited about it. Which is great.

But put me down as a recommender of "going deeper with fewer things" rather than amassing phrases each day.

[pamosmusic]

Yeah, it sounds like you might be trying to fit a year's worth of work into a few weeks.

Which, means you're excited about it. Which is great.

But put me down as a recommender of "going deeper with fewer things" rather than amassing phrases each day.

Yeah I think for most folks what you and Tal describe is the move. One line for a few days, a week, two weeks, whatever. Really take it apart, etc.

I'm also a big fan of osmosis ... like learning a solo really really well but not really making much conscious effort to absorb the individual vocabulary. That also means spending maybe a month on a solo.

In both cases, you probably won't see the vocabulary in your playing for a while after you leave it behind. And you probably won't see it verbatim ever.

It's just a slow and imprecise process. Fortunately, it happens to be fun.

[Basshead]

Great advice guys but hey, I used to be a pro musician, I started when I was 19 yo and I had to learn 64 songs in two weeks and then 3 gigs in a row in one weekend. Right now if I friend call me cause he might have a problem with a bass player I need to learn 9 Gospel songs on bass for next week, thats hard

So yeah not sure if its too much but I get it, the only difference that I see here is that I like to play it bit by bit, slowly, metronome, sing it, put it in different keys and fingers but I dont really memorize it in order to play it live, I like to absorb it and analyze it but not by heart, maybe thats my mistake...???

[mr. beaumont]

I like to absorb it and analyze it but not by heart, maybe thats my mistake...???

No, I actually think that's fine. I like to think of licks and lines as more "malleable," they're ideas, not set in stone. I think you get more mileage out of them that way.

[joe2758]

I think the advice given here is to take it slow because building vocabulary involves long term memory, as where preparing for a gig quickly probably won't. Do you remember the gospel songs still?

[Tal_175]

I think the advice given here is to take it slow because building vocabulary involves long term memory, as where preparing for a gig quickly probably won't. Do you remember the gospel songs still?

Yes, working towards a fire and forget gig is very different than growing as an improvisor.

[AllanAllen]

Yeah, I've forgotten dozens of songs I learned for 1 gig. But stuff I spent real time with, like Billies Bounce or Ornihology, I can not play them for months and with no sweat pull it off on a gig.

But ask me to play Moondance and I've got to look up the changes because I don't care about it.

[pamosmusic]

Great advice guys but hey, I used to be a pro musician, I started when I was 19 yo and I had to learn 64 songs in two weeks and then 3 gigs in a row in one weekend. Right now if I friend call me cause he might have a problem with a bass player I need to learn 9 Gospel songs on bass for next week, thats hard

So yeah not sure if its too much but I get it, the only difference that I see here is that I like to play it bit by bit, slowly, metronome, sing it, put it in different keys and fingers but I dont really memorize it in order to play it live, I like to absorb it and analyze it but not by heart, maybe thats my mistake...???

I mean ... not to be weird about it ... but I'm professional musician and full time music teacher and I'm slow af.

[Basshead]

I think the advice given here is to take it slow because building vocabulary involves long term memory, as where preparing for a gig quickly probably won't. Do you remember the gospel songs still?

I dont those gospel tunes, if my friend gets in trouble I need to learn those 9 songs in less than a week and go to the gig, in Spain is call being a substitute

But yeah I get it, one phrase or head or lick per week and try to incorporate that into my world.

If you go to the bar where the Am7 foes to Abm7... that type of enclosure going aorund the third of D7 (F sharp) and then kinda octave displacement to another one to the fifth (D) of Gm7... thats the stuff that I really dig, sounds a bit bach/debussy, sounds genious, I love to incorporate that sound into my playing.

[pamosmusic]

Yeah, I've forgotten dozens of songs I learned for 1 gig. But stuff I spent real time with, like Billies Bounce or Ornihology, I can not play them for months and with no sweat pull it off on a gig.

But ask me to play Moondance and I've got to look up the changes because I don't care about it.

And yeah this too ... I played in a buddy's wedding this past weekend and learned the songs in a day or two and played them at the ceremony from memory. Learning an intricate Wes line or something to the extent that I feel like it's internalized and starting to turn up in my playing is another thing entirely.

[pamosmusic]

I dont those gospel tunes, if my friend gets in trouble I need to learn those 9 songs in less than a week and go to the gig, in Spain is call being a substitute

But yeah I get it, one phrase or head or lick per week and try to incorporate that into my world.

I don't think anyone here is trying to give you a specific routine like this (one per week) but rather just trying to caution you that the problem that everyone (truly pretty much everyone) has to overcome when they start getting into this music is that they bite off more than they can chew.

Everyone has had the experience of forgetting a bunch of stuff they tried to cram and then realizing that they'll learn more by investing time in a few things. You'll probably have it too.

[rpjazzguitar]

What I've found is that when I transcribe (which refers to lifting fragments of tunes that catch my ear, not whole solos, which I've never done, but should have, I think), I usually end up understanding how the solo was crafted (which scale, which arp against which chord, that sort of thing). But, even when I know what's going on, I can't necessarily directly use the ideas and sound appropriately jazzy. There's an elusive bit of time-feel and melodicism that I can imitate but not generalize. Maybe over time, as my ear grows.

Here's a concrete example. I got a recording of Chico Pinheiro demonstrating how to solo over a ii V I in Cmajor. He sounded as unique as ever -- unmistakeably Chico. I transcribed it. The part that was so unmistakeably him was Galt against G7. Same thing as everybody else does in terms of scale, but with an essential difference that I think is melodicism and time feel. Also, articulation -- Chico plays with unusual clarity - each note pristene.

So how do we mortals proceed? Tried and true is learning from recordings and trying to cop the sound as closely as possible. I'd add anything that builds up your ears is a step in the right direction. Transcribing, scat singing, singing harmony etc. One thing that occurs to me which I've never heard anybody suggest on a guitar forum is transcribing two horns or singers playing in harmony. Too hard maybe? Some of the best players I've known have done it.

[wolflen]

So how do we mortals proceed? Tried and true is learning from recordings and trying to cop the sound as closely as possible. I'd add anything that builds up your ears is a step in the right direction. Transcribing, scat singing, singing harmony etc. One thing that occurs to me which I've never heard anybody suggest on a guitar forum is transcribing two horns or singers playing in harmony. Too hard maybe? Some of the best players I've known have done it.

Recent experiment..I took the opening line of St Louis Blues against the harmonic movement of All Blues.. I heard this and thought it would work and in the
context I was playing in..it did.

Playing by ear?? Knowing exactly what its going to sound like OR an experiment..and see what happens.

[charlieparker]

And yeah this too ... I played in a buddy's wedding this past weekend and learned the songs in a day or two and played them at the ceremony from memory. Learning an intricate Wes line or something to the extent that I feel like it's internalized and starting to turn up in my playing is another thing entirely.

Honestly, listening to your album, you are a talented player. I would try it however you feel works for you. If you think you can process one phrase a day go for it. If after a few months you feel ot hasn't been productive then maybe follow some of the advice here. YMMV.

[Basshead]

Hey Charlieparker, which album are you referring to?

[charlieparker]

Hey Charlieparker, which album are you referring to?

The one on YouTube earlier in this thread you said you recorded in a few days

[Basshead]

Oh ok thanks, you actually listened to the album, you must be the only one LOL

There are some bebop inspired lines in there, specially in the songs based on Sowhat, All blues and the Bb blues x bulerias, there is a song based on McCoy quartal harmony comining 2 minor melodic scales.

[pamosmusic]

Honestly, listening to your album, you are a talented player. I would try it however you feel works for you. If you think you can process one phrase a day go for it. If after a few months you feel ot hasn't been productive then maybe follow some of the advice here. YMMV.

I was about to say … you quoted me and I neither have an album nor am particularly talented.

“Sir I think you’re confusing me for someone else.”

[Basshead]

I had a dream... I always wanted to moved to the US, as mix engineer to LA, as musician maybe nashville, Miami as latino person... but looks like is going down and the debt crisis is near, probably next 2026 will freak out with the economy, what you guys think? lets go off topic for a day

[pamosmusic]

I had a dream... I always wanted to moved to the US, as mix engineer to LA, as musician maybe nashville, Miami as latino person... but looks like is going down and the debt crisis is near, probably next 2026 will freak out with the economy, what you guys think? lets go off topic for a day

Youre new here but this is a terrible idea

[Basshead]

New here? I discovered this site in 2008 before I moved to London, I remember perfectly

[GuyBoden]

Listen to a lot of Jazz.

Personally, I think listening to a lot of Jazz is crucial. As a big Jazz fan, this is most enjoyable.

So, forget about the guitar, just listen to a lot of Jazz and enjoy listening.

[Basshead]

I think this interview is really interesting and related to Jazz vocabulary