Jazz Vocabulary

[Tal_175]

I consider mastery of the instrument part of musicianship. To me the craft is not separate from being a musician. There is no doubt that the right balance is different for different people. I don't know if I agree with the generalization that students who primarily focus on fretboard skills for, say, a year tend to be less musical. I know examples of very musical people who have gone through extremes of this. Mostly because the jazz programs they attended demanded hours of daily practice of scales and patterns in the first couple of years. But one of the strengths of schools is the structure they provide.

Regarding Barry Harris type of approach, if a student works on building phrases over tunes using building blocks reasonably consistently, but the process never develops their ears and remains a paint by number math, then I would say that the student is probably particularly unmusical. I don't know if learning licks or any other method would help them become a better musician. Christian, I vaguely remember reading that you really learned how to play bebop once you started attending BH sessions. The way you worked on jazz before didn't get you to play jazz. Am I mistaken? But I guess stuff you did before then worked well as a primer.

[Basshead]

My two cents, technique is in the repertory, it is great to do some technique and fretboard knowledge but if you want to play a delta blues just go for it, if you want to play ACDC riff go for it, wanna play octaves like Wes? start now, wanna play Joe Pass All the things you are? learn the first chord today... unfortunately I find young players with great technique, a lot of theory stuff from youtube, chops but no repertory, like hey man lets play beatles, hendrix, eagles, a bb blues, minor blues, pink floyd, stardards, jobim, mozart... anything... and they be like I know 100 thousand licks and chops, riffs and pieces of tunes but I cant play a tune or even follow one so yeah, its good to learn tunes or at least be familiar with them, I not going to memorize CC solos or tunes this week but Im listening to some recordings that I did not listen in few years and listening and singing some if this stuff puts you in a particular mood then you listen to classical or flamenco guitar and is another world so its ok to go in phases too, like Ima be into blues or bebop or a particular player or a particular method like Barry Harris for a while and focus on get the most of it cause one thing thats easy this days is to get confused by so many YT lessons.
When a I was younger I learnt to read music pretty good but my ears were way behind my technique, still kinda now but I did two big mistakes, did not use metronome till I was 22 yo or so and I did not sing much but one thing that I did right is to learn a million tunes from rock to boleros, from pantera to jobim, santana to paco...any book or score that I could get or photocopied so at least you get chops from classic tunes and not from instagram licky flashy 30 sec videos...I guess Im getting old and miserable LOL
Someone mentioned learning bebop heads before and that actually makes a lot of sense if you think about it!

[ragman1]

Personally, I learned the fretboard from playing tunes. That, and needing to find notes and chords above the 5th fret.

Luckily I knew how to read music from my Bert Weedon book when pretty young by playing single notes on open strings with different rhythms through to nursery tunes. When I started to do jazz standards it was basically the same thing only more complex.

But I can still only do the treble clef. Had I learned piano it would have been two clefs at once. In fact, had I done, say, cello it would have been three.

[Christian Miller]

I consider mastery of the instrument part of musicianship. To me the craft is not separate from being a musician. There is no doubt that the right balance is different for different people.

I think people can be bad at assessing what the right balance is for them, and can go down rabbit holes that suit them. Mathy people get mathy. Arty people sometimes lack structure. Good to have input.

Operating the instrument is somewhat separate to being a musician, in that musicianship is universal between instruments. The instrumental side of it is just about getting the music out on the instrument. That's a somewhat bounded and finite task. It's not nothing - we all need time on the instrument. But a lot of it is simply muscle memory.

OTOH being a good musician is where about 90% of the work is done - and a big part of that is knowing what you want to come out of the instrument and what it should sound like. It's sounds silly, but that's like most of it. The level to which you know that and can hear it is something you can get deeper and deeper into - but that's it. I hear more than I did ten years ago. Five years ago. I don't think I can play faster than I did ten years ago lol.

It's why good musicians can pick up unfamiliar instruments surprisingly quickly - right? Most of the work is already done - you just need to match what comes out of the instrument to what you hear, as best as you can. Then it's practicing into muscle memory after that. Might not make you a virtuoso, but you can learn to play it. (It also helps because you have prior experience in practicing an instrument, so you get the process for doing that and don't waste time.)

For someone who is not a musician learning guitar for example - it's a much slower process. I see this even for kids that have done a couple of years of piano. They just get it much quicker, because they are already musicians.

It's why Tristano taught the way he did. Sing the solo first - play later.

I don't know if I agree with the generalization that students who primarily focus on fretboard skills for, say, a year tend to be less musical.

No I didn't say that. I said for anyone musical the idea of working on only scales would most likely be a bit dry and not enjoyable of itself. Someone musical might be willing to put the hours in if you felt that it was going to get you something in the long run.

I know examples of very musical people who have gone through extremes of this. Mostly because the jazz programs they attended demanded hours of daily practice of scales and patterns in the first couple of years. But one of the strengths of schools is the structure they provide.

You are talking about undergraduate level students. Which is, incidentally, a good level to be getting serous about the Barry Harris approach if that interests the student.

It's a different context. You'll have different teachers and classes at a music school. Your super strict guitar teacher might be telling you to do x or y drills ONLY, but you still have other classes where you are expected to play music on your instrument, transcribe solos and so on. An instrumental teacher in that environment is focussing on instrumental skills.

If I have someone come to me privately I am probably teaching a wider cross section of stuff - unless a higher level student comes by wanting specific input, which does happen.

I would still question its value as an approach to teaching - I still think it's unnecessary, and I still don't like it.

I would say that you can do a lot with 15m a day truly effective practice on things like technique and scales. There's no need to be neurotic about it.

Regarding Barry Harris type of approach, if a student works on building phrases over tunes using building blocks reasonably consistently, but the process never develops their ears and remains a paint by number math, then I would say that they are probably particularly unmusical. I don't know if learning licks or any other method would help them become a better musician. Christian, I vaguely remember reading that you really learned how to play bebop once you started attending BH sessions. The way you worked on jazz before didn't get you to play jazz. Am I mistaken? But I guess stuff you did before then worked well as a primer.

It's complicated. I went to Barry's classes for a bit and didn't quite get it. Learned some things, but not that much. Then I started working more on solos and heads. That taught me a lot. I could already play jazz to some extent - I was gigging. So I was transcribing Parker and Bud Powell, and that brought me back to Barry. Then it made sense as a complete way of encapsulating that stuff.

But even now, you know, I can play with Barry stuff and come up with nice things, chord scales you name it, but the best way of getting the creativity flowing is to go through some music.

[pamosmusic]

I think getting better at fretboard fluency requires discipline, focus and a dedicated practice approach. It often means temporarily putting less focus on other things. It's not uncommon for serious students to make that a deliberate priority for extended periods of time. But of course you have to meet students where they are.

yeah what I would teach the theoretical blank slate student is different than what works best for the actual student in front of me.

Some is my own experience too … I did learn that way and honestly kind of burned out and stopped playing guitar for two years. So I know the fretboard really well now but I would go about it differently if I did it again

[Christian Miller]

yeah what I would teach the theoretical blank slate student is different than what works best for the actual student in front of me.

Some is my own experience too … I did learn that way and honestly kind of burned out and stopped playing guitar for two years. So I know the fretboard really well now but I would go about it differently if I did it again

Yeah, I think mental health is important?

Also, the body reflects the mind, and I see a lot of capable, but rather tense players come out of jazz school to be honest.

My favourite example of bad psychology in jazz education is the term Avoid Note. Oh great, tell people NOT to play a note. That's genius that is. Have these people never dealt with children?

[Christian Miller]

Also - here's a another MASSIVE thing.

Learning is not linear. Doing X does not predictably lead to Y. You are not a computer.

Also - learning is not based purely on explicit information given by the teacher. A lot of it is experiential - based on picking up things without sometimes even realising it. Often this will take precedence over verbal information. Which is why listening and playing with people are the two most important things.

(How teachers demonstrate/model things is really important, maybe as much or more than what they tell the student.)

Neither truth is especially well accommodated by formal education environments.

[Basshead]

Hey Christian, nice video but who told you that Wes used the altered scale? just curious, Peter Farrel said the other day that Wes used more what would be Db mixolidian instead of G altered(ab melodic minor) and I find this a bit confusing to be honest. I used to use the altered scale and the lydiant dominant for other secondary dominants like in the chicken from D7 or that Db7 in Cantaloupe but I recently discovered that those old school guys probably used the basic mixo scale??

For instance if i got this progression: Cma7 - Eb7 - Dm7 - G7

C lydian - Eb lydian dominant - D dorian - G altered could be a choice, I studied this stuff lonf time ago from books that might be more fusion-ish I guess.

B minor penta - C minor penta - Am or Em penta and Bb minor pentatonic could be another option among others.

To me the altered scale sounds better with minor II V like blue bossa, summertime...but in songs like All the things you are works much more better to try to wrap the chord tones with basic enclosures than going to chord scale mode, what you think?

The way Ive learnt Blue Bossa, unfortunately, was like C dorian, F dorian, F minor melodic for D half diminished, G altered...then Eb dorian, Ab altered, Db lydian, F melodic minor, G altered and C minor hamonic...great scale exercise but pure hell if you really want to improv, I think Jimmy Bruno and those guys are pretty clear that is not possible to really improv with all that info in mind, better to surf around the chord tones, which is not easy tho

[brent.h]

Bro, I'm sorry, but I think maybe you're starting to worrying about small details and losing sight of the larger picture.

First, you're going back to the same way of thinking about jazz: scales/modes. It's neverending. Just put them away, and don't even think about them. The larger picture is that you have all the chops, all the scales, the knowledge, but you don't seem satisfied with your playing because it doesn't sound like Bird or whatever. I don't think going back to thinking which is the 'more correct scale' (altered vs lydian dominant vs mixolydian or whatever) is going to help you.

Second, Ab minor (melodic, dorian, whatever) is the same as Db7 or Db mixolydian. In the key of C, G7 = Bb7 = Db7 = E7 = Ab-6 = B-6 = D-6 = F-6 because they all come from the same diminished chord. This is from Barry Harris. (Plus, they are all roughly the same region of notes on the fretboard). The larger picture is that all these 8 chords have the same function, which is to create tension before going back to C. So, don't stress about details like altered vs mixolydian.

...and yeah lets focus this week on Charlie Christian and some of those small licks, sing those, different keys...nice homework.

...I not going to memorize CC solos or tunes this week but Im listening to some recordings that I did not listen in few years ...

Third, you seem to change your mind so quickly. One moment, you're convinced about singing and learning the jazz vocabulary, the next moment, you're not convinced. This is definitely not a language issue between us; I just cannot understand what you want to do or don't want to do.

I don't mean any offence because you seem like a nice guy and a great player, but how about you find yourself a jazz teacher in Spain who can help you? Perhaps one-on-one teaching is better than asking an internet forum?

[Basshead]

Dont panic Brent, Ima stick to sing and CC solos

Not is not the same scale, Db mixo and G altered, just one note changed but the whole point here, at least to me, is to know how people like Wes thought and IMO no one of those players had any chord scale concept in mind, not even Abercrombie or even Metheny, do your research, watch the interviews, all that stuff started with some books, some famous school and some guy who wrote a book just behind our buddy in that video or maybe am I wrong?

Back blues, no worries, this week Im focusing only on Bb and F blues comp and solos

[Christian Miller]

Hey Christian, nice video but who told you that Wes used the altered scale? just curious, Peter Farrel said the other day that Wes used more what would be Db mixolydian instead of G altered(ab melodic minor) and I find this a bit confusing to be honest.

Told? Don't wait around for people to tell you things. Go find out yourself!

But -now you're talking my language - what did people actually play? Let's get into the weeds!

Peter is correct AFAIK. I would go further - the altered scale is rare in general for this era and earlier. I can think of an example from George Shearing, but there's not a huge amount. It tends to be minor key (harmonic/natural minor) or tritone dominant/mixo scale.*


So I'll weasel my way out and say I never actually said that Wes used the altered scale... I'm just relating it to the way people tend to learn these days. The way I personally think about this stuff is not quite how I lay out in the video.

These days it's the altered scale is the default choice in jazz theory books and education. Everything gets analysed through that lens - a player plays a passing b9 in the voice leading of a II V I line - altered scale. The classic b9-#9-b9-1-b7 figure on a V7? Altered scale! A player plays a Db or an Abm triad on G7 - altered scale. And so on. Wes does indeed use all of those devices.

But that's not quite the way it is in this era - even modal influenced post-bop! There's a lot of devices and subs that get used that are related to the scale in this way, but unambiguous use of the altered scale is actually quite rare. I can think of some, but not many.

I'd also say that that G7alt arpeggio shape I give is not actually the altered scale, despite me saying it is. It lacks the b5, and when I put the b5 in I note in the video that it sounds a bit spicy. That's because the usual choice for a V7alt - the V7b9#9b13 actually consists entirely of notes from the I natural and harmonic minor scales. The "#9" is what happens when you play a minor line with a b7 over a V7 chord, and there's loads of examples of that from the music, going back to the 40s, maybe before. One may almost call it 'the blues'. I think it comes naturally from the way jazz musicians improvise music.

TBH I'm hard pressed to find example of him playing melodic minor. Take this tune for example, where the chords seem to demand it (Bb-^7 and Ab-^7)

It's dorian all the way. You can hear at 1:31 the piano is clearly playing an Ab-^7 and Wes is happily playing the Ab dorian - with a clear b7 - over the top.

At 2:05 he's playing the blues on this -^7 chords.

OTOH all his altered dominant stuff in this solo is like one note - often the b13 of V7 going to the 9 of I. Which I see more as a chromatic voice leading rather than from any parent scale. The changes go by quick - so there's a lesson there for all of us. Think of one note, not seven.

But I'm not a Wesologist - I expect Peter has transcribed much more of his stuff than I have. There's also others here who have transcribed his stuff a lot.

But it varies from player to player. Blue Mitchell uses melodic minor religiously on the original Horace Silver recording which is interesting because he was an ear player according to DJG (although the other horn, Junior Cook doesn't.)

You know who else doesn't seem to use melodic minor in his lines? Wayne Shorter, even where it would seem the natural choice from the chords.

You know who seems to - Charlie Christian! (Although not the altered.) I even have an example from Stephan Grappelli lol. Does it count if they did it without the explicit knowledge of what they were doing? I'll leave that to the philosophers.

But don't take Peter or my - or anyone's - word for it. See what you think.

*(I believe Lennie Tristano taught melodic minors on dominants as far back as the 40s, but I don't think his teaching was mainstream, more like a seperate sect within bebop.)

[Basshead]

Ok thanks mate, as far as I know Lenny Tristano was all about ear training but he is another interesting legend.

[Christian Miller]

Ok thanks mate, as far as I know Lenny Tristano was all about ear training but he is another interesting legend.

Read this book to find out more
A Jazz Life, a book by John Klopotowski | Jazz Guitar | Warne Marsh

AFAIK Warne Marsh was pretty close to Tristano's teaching approach.

I wouldn't call it ear training. There aren't exercises for 'improving your ear'. This is about learning to internalise the music.

Seriously, people sweat the 'getting the notes out on your instrument' side of it. But that's relatively easy once you can sing it.

[djg]

So I'll weasel my way out and say I never actually said that Wes used the altered scale...

pheew, that was a close one...

[GuyBoden]

I'm deep, deep down the fretboard rabbit hole and I like it.

(Below is a CAGED position with a couple of extra notes. Useful for BH "added Half step" rule number 4, when playing lines starting on the 2nd, 4th and 6th note of the scale.)
(You've got to play music within the scale. Play an arp, Jump up an octave, Jump down an octave. Use approaches, enclosures, slides etc.)


I'm also singing along to Bird heads/solos, but slowed down. All good fun.

Edit: The very little Jazz vocabulary I have is from stealing Phrases from the Jazz greats and playing that phrase for a month or so. I don't think some folk realise that it takes an enormous amount of Repetition, Repetition, REPETITION to get a Jazz phrase into your sub-conscious. (Repetition of singing and playing the phrase.)

See: Play the same phrase everyday for a month challenge:
Play the same Phrase everyday for a Month challenge.

[Tal_175]

The first book I got when I decided move to in the direction of jazz was Al Di Meola's "A Guide to Scales, Chords & Arpeggios Book". I found it to be a very scary book at the time. It has pages and pages of chord voicings, scale fingerings (including modes), arpeggios and progressions. There are 6 fingerings in some positions. It has lessons with a dozen tasks where each task is like go to page X and memorize all the fingerings. Then go to page Y memorize all the major voicings on that page etc. I tried to work through the book, it sucked the life out of me. Not only it was dry but it seemed like it'd take a life time to learn it. Little did I know that I even doubted if anyone would know all that. These weren't anything like playing the blues. I put to book away and never looked at it until recently.

I picked the book up recently. There is nothing in the book I can't easily access on the fretboard now. I was actually surprised how little it covered. Arpeggios don't have upper extensions, chord voicings are fairly basic etc. Some chord voicings I may not use but they are the sort of voicings I build when I need to without memorizing as grips. I don't play 6 fingerings of dorian per position but some I do, the others I play if I need to. I know the scales and I know the fretboard both pitchwise or intervallically. I can play a scale diagonally, or on a single string or in reverse starting on any chord tone and I do sometimes with little effort. These don't seem like a big deal to me anymore. In fact I think one needs a lot more work then just memorizing those fingerings if one is to put the scales in use in the jazz context. So memorizing everything in the book wouldn't even get you there in itself.

The point is, I took lessons from good jazz guitarists back then (maybe 4 or 5 at different times). They knew their fretboard. It was like watching a magic trick. They could talk about a concept and just instantly find it anywhere on the fretboard or play voicings of a chord up and down the fretboard without a blink. There was no barrier between things they knew about music and their instruments. Everything they knew were also at their disposal. I was kind of good at playing things by ear, that didn't impress me (at least it wasn't as mysterious to me as knowing the instrument). What impressed me was the command on the instrument. None of the teachers helped me with the fretboard. It's not because they didn't want to. None of them had a well thought out plan for how to teach that stuff. I had to figure it all out myself. I was able to remove the barrier but I had to try and retry many approaches in terms of how to organize harmony and fretboard. I would've saved me a lot of time if one of these teachers had put some thought into that aspect of musicianship that they took for granted.

[Tal_175]

I get a lot more pleasure playing the instrument now that barrier is gone or very manageable. You get more freedom with less mental effort (the unpleasant type). There is definitely a payoff for the effort. I mean it's always work in progress but it gets easier once you pass a certain threshold.

[Basshead]

Interesting chat fellas, what would you practice if you only had 40 min a day? I think that some of the master would probably focus on just one thing and maybe just that thing for a week or so and then if they had 6 hours a day they would probably do the same, just focus one little bit, lets say transcribing a solo, composing a piece, work on time feel...just one thing per session, what you think?

Im composing a blues in 5/4 and I adapted a couple of bebopy lines that I just learnt here is a little snippet.

Instagram

[AllanAllen]

My favourite example of bad psychology in jazz education is the term Avoid Note. Oh great, tell people NOT to play a note. That's genius that is. Have these people never dealt with children?

Those Jazz kids need more defiance.

Maybe 2 years ago, someone here suggested not to play B natural over the F chord in Take The A Train. So I made a lick using it and I still to this day purposely hit it every time I play the tune.

[AllanAllen]

Interesting chat fellas, what would you practice if you only had 40 min a day?

Me personally, I would work on Parker heads and comping.

[pamosmusic]

Me personally, I would work on Parker heads and comping.

I buy that.

Maybe every other day or something you swap out and play some single note voiceleading instead of one of those elements?

But yeah.

Bop heads are the first things that I work on so when I have a tight practice day, that’s often all I do.

[AllanAllen]

So I'll weasel my way out and say I never actually said that Wes used the altered scale...

I thought you pulled a lick/concept from the D- line and the "What Wes played" ended there. After that it was running it through major and dominant uses.

[Christian Miller]

You could make a case for Wes playing the altered scale at 1:37 in that video BTW. Just noticed. It's the classic 3-#9-b9-1 device on a dominant. That's all over bebop.

Could equally be diminished scale. Or - not a scale at all LOL.

[Mick-7]

I can't get audio on it. The others worked fine.

I've noticed that Basshead's videos have mute set as default, you have to click the little speaker icon on the bottom right of the video screen to turn on the audio.

[Basshead]

Instagram degrades the sound a lot, dont know why, sounds like the nylon guitar has a chorus or something

You guys saw that Abercrombie interview where he says that in Berklee in the 60s there was no books or much theory and he never ever heard about the chord scale concept till much later people started asking him about modes and stuff? there are few stories like that, Joe Pass evening video saying ¨dont ask me about modes¨and just sing everything, dont play patterns...etc. Those two videos specially and the ones Metheny and Stern talk about chord tones were the ones that made me realize I was going well but in a complete opposite direction so I started wondering me... maybe thats why I still suck LOL theres probably some other reasons

I guess in my world the gateway to this type of stuff is more Carlton and Ford, then Scofield, Stern, Metheny... I was lucky I got some Wes and Grant Green records when I was a teen but I did not get it at all. The very first magazine I bought had a Jim Hall interview and he talked about transcribing from other instruments like sax or piano and I remember thinking... wtf man, this guys is nuts... now I get it