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Well, it’s tricky. The students going into the system can be a very mixed bag for smaller universities.
Today we have the world of trying to teach composition at university to students who don’t read and write music and have never interacted with a live ensemble. Which is not to say that such musicians don’t have great creativity or ideas - far from it - or that acoustic performance is necessarily the be all and end all. The world keeps turning.
But does make things tricky for teachers.
This style of musical training existed in a monoculture to fulfil a specific commercial need.
OTOH I was always curious as to how JS Bach learned to improvise. That’s what got me here lol.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkLast edited by Christian Miller; 10-24-2025 at 03:55 PM.
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10-24-2025 03:36 PM
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I should also say I'm being hypocritical.
On one hand I'm saying someone like me had no business going to music school. On the other hand I'm saying they're doing it wrong.
I guess that's ridiculous.
But I don't think it voids all my points
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Ah you weren’t to know. It’s really unfair, so many institutions are trading off the careers of musicians who would have been stars wherever they went because they were at a really high level when they went in, assuming that there’s some mysterious special suace you can only learn at college.
Originally Posted by joe2758
Which is not to disparage teaching at music colleges - but there’s only so much you can do in four years.
The less charitable might view it as a bit of a pyramid scheme… but I think there’s potential to widen the scope of higher music education beyond the narrow horizons of the dying 20th century model of orchestras and concert musicians (which has carried through into jazz somewhat especially within the schools.) We need to think about how music goes out into the world in the wider sense.
Btw there’s quite a lot about how we got here in Mortensen’s Improvising Fugue, which has a fair bit of historical narrative in between telling you about Episodes and Tonal Answers. There’s a shift towards producing specialised high level technician/interpreters around 1850.
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Practice update:
Pretty much only working on the partimento things Bruno gives me. Rule of the octave pretty much. His opinion is go through the Furno method first, then romantisize.
I secretly add chromaticism when he's not looking.
All I have left to do to acquire a copy of the Boucheron from the Bologna Library is send a bank transfer. So I will probably secretly dip into that. In a couple weeks maybe?
As for guitarists, I am finding a good amount of material between Villa Lobos, Barrios, and Lauro. But perhaps only 25-50% of their work primarily because of their rich latin heritage and influence which won't be a part of my style. Mertz is the closest. But, I don't think there is Chopin of guitar for me to idolize in the same way.
I won't be learning any complete pieces, so I'm not sure if it matters if I analyze piano vs guitar. I will probably learn bits and pieces from the above composers though to get music in my ears and hands. I just don't have the time and I need to carve a direct path. It would be pretty silly to not have a couple simple chopin arrangements performance level though. Retaining repertoire on the other hand would take up all my practice time.
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Here's an example of the partimento stuff. I'm not playing them the same way twice, and as you can see I had to stop to think a couple times.
So this is definitely working toward improv, and I am pretty certain I'll able to improvise something like this in a couple months of hard work.
You can also see how technically easy they are, which was part of my criteria. I think it's possible to make music like this without the virtuosity. So much romantic music with lush harmony has so much virtuosity, but I don't think it's a necessary component.
Bruno didn't like the chord at the end lol
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Sounds like a good direction,
Important for get the fundamentals together first
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This could be cool for jazz players looking for something outside the box. Classical's most lush harmonies:https://thelibraryofsonorities.com/?i=1
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man, to be able to do what he does...
Anyway, diminished with a borrowed note on either the 7, 2, 4, b6
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Yeah I was thinking that. I play stuff like that in jazz Originally Posted by joe2758
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I sent him a message asking if he has seen something like the Stella chord in that music genre. Hopefully he will have time to respond, I think he's very busy.
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Stella by starlight kind of is in that music genre Originally Posted by joe2758
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exactly, it would be cool to an example from like Schumann or something. As I'm collecting these chords from his channel I am including the stella chord in my bag. (G E Bb Db F#)
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I successfully acquired from them a scan of this document. Here is an excerpt: Originally Posted by joe2758
I hope to convert it to pdf, esp if i can highlight and translate the text (there is a whole theoretical treatise) ...but I am absolutely useless at those things.
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Yeah looks quite manageable on guitar if they are all that quarter note based. Originally Posted by joe2758
I successfully acquired from them a scan of this document. Here is an excerpt:
I hope to convert it to pdf, esp if i can highlight and translate the text (there is a whole theoretical treatise) ...but I am absolutely useless at those things.
The florid basses you get in the keyboard stuff (like Fenaroli) need to be simplified, but I think you can only do that if you are more advanced.
EDIT: unless you realise partimenti on two instruments, which could be very fun, and I must get into it. No idea if people did that back in the day, but I think it's totally possible in theory.
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Anyway this is what I'm working on ATM. This is a bass by Friedrich Erhard Niedt whose Musical Guide influenced JS Bach's far less entertaining treatise on thoroughbass, which is to say Bach cribbed most of it from part 1 of the Niedt and added some clarifications and expansions here. He misses out the bit where Niedt says studying counterpoint is a waste of time for nerds.
I mean he's not one of great wits of C18 letters, but it's a fun read.
In part II he uses a bassline to develop into a baroque suite. It's interesting how he develops the bass. Much of the lesson is reproduced in John Mortensen's Pianists Guide, but it's worth seeking out the original, if only because Niedt is really salty, and I'm here for it. He would have made an excellent (or insufferable?) YouTuber. Also there are some bits Mortensen didn't include.
So it's of interest because it touches on something you don't get in partimento which is how to develop a bass into different types of piece. So we have this partimento style bass:
then he chops it down so you just have a short Chaconne ground bass
But then he also inserts repeats so you have a symmetrical binary form suitable for an Allemande. (The C in bar two is a misprint I think- should be an E)
It's got two 9 bar sections - nice touch... I get way too stuck on regular forms being a modern musician who's grown up in the tyranny of regular 8 bar forms.
And then he does the Courante, Gigue and Sarabande. It's neat.
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cool thanks!
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cool thanks! I can't believe i am actually improvising this stuff. best shift in direction i ever took
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So the first half of the treatise seems to be teaching students who knew Fenerolli etc to also be thinking in terms of function and inversion. Really trying to combine them.
almost the opposite of what I am doing, which actually is perfect innit?
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That sounds jive Originally Posted by joe2758
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I can't believe you let me sleep on this Brahms sonata. Chopin level of goodness. I must have listened to the wrong thing when I was trying to get an over all feel for him before
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Wot Brahms sonata? Originally Posted by joe2758
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1, 2, and 3. lol but it was the second half of the first movement of first sonata where I was like "whhooaaaaahh wait a minute..." then I just listened to rest of them. i really do wish i remembered what i listened to before when i was like "meh"
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Brahms is much better than it sounds at first
I’ve always found him a difficult but rewarding composer. You have to love with his music for awhile. At least I do.
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like sort of take it out for dinner and talk real nice to it?
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No because it will be an awkward date with an introvert who cannot make small talk Originally Posted by joe2758
You have to spend at least five years having out as friends
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