Chopin Barry Harris analysis

[joe2758]

here's an example of two takes on the same bass line.

The big difference is no writing, they stem from improv, and each video is probably about 2 hours of work as opposed to 2 weeks.

One is a little more polished obviously, but I am letting go of them when they start to feel more like compositions than improv.

Not writing stuff down has not even felt like much of an adjustment, but has felt like a huge leap forward

Also, if these were made into compositions you can see i am sticking to my goal of not making them any harder than a Sor etude

Also, using same figuration in both per my teacher

[Christian Miller]

This seems like a good path ...

I'm at peace with my things being somewhat composed. I think composing at the instrument is adjacent to improvisation. If you swap things around (as you seem to be doing) you develop flexibility. Doing it in time without practicing a piece and sticking it down is HARD.

[Christian Miller]

One thing - I find it helpful not to think about chords too much, but focus on bass and melody and then fill in the chords. I think the guitar tends to get chordy very fast.

[joe2758]

yeah definitely. So the first one I did was 3 note chords, figuration with those, and just melody with bass

Then for this one we also added a bass-two note-melody in the style of tarrega. So it is basically a 4 voice one which wont be my default. I think it was supposed to be a melody of only down beats preludey thing. We'll see what teacher says. just continually making different versions

[Christian Miller]

yeah definitely. So the first one I did was 3 note chords, figuration with those, and just melody with bass

Then for this one we also added a bass-two note-melody in the style of tarrega. So it is basically a 4 voice one which wont be my default. I think it was supposed to be a melody of only down beats preludey thing. We'll see what teacher says. just continually making different versions

I’m coming from a different place because I’m not especially interested in emulating 19th century guitar music… but I feel I’ve got a lot out of two part realisations.

An issue with the Fenaroli RO is that it is quite boring musically. I’d almost say it’s better suited to block chord continuo playing.

Other versions of the RO leap more - and introducing leaps into your melody I think adds a lot more musical interest than just going up and down stepwise in the top voice.

Some people conceptualise that as mixing Fenaroli’s positions.

I prefer to look at it as two part counterpoint, and then I can fill in the middle voices or activate them as necessary.

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[joe2758]

I prefer to look at it as two part counterpoint, and then I can fill in the middle voices or activate them as necessary.

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So if I did that, would it start like my melody version in post #280 but then fill in with some chord tones that are convenient to play in a less patterny way?

[joe2758]

All those chords considered advanced in music theory classes are so simple.The Neapolitan chord is on the 4th degree and has a lowered 6th. That's it. I can change all my 4 chords to that (if going to 5) by changing 1 note without thinking. It's only one note different than a sub dom...much easier than a bII6 chord.Also French6/7b5 chord comes about very naturally by using the basic ro.and those two happen to be my favorite chords.I used them in jazz but very haphazardly

[Christian Miller]

All those chords considered advanced in music theory classes are so simple.The Neapolitan chord is on the 4th degree and has a lowered 6th. That's it. I can change all my 4 chords to that (if going to 5) by changing 1 note without thinking. It's only one note different than a sub dom...much easier than a bII6 chord.Also French6/7b5 chord comes about very naturally by using the basic ro.and those two happen to be my favorite chords.I used them in jazz but very haphazardly

I know right?

The augmented sixth is just what happens when you want to set up a leading tone to V in the minor half cadence - you raise the 4 of the key by a half step momentarily.

It’s all just basic counterpoint.

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[Mick-7]

man, to be able to do what he does...

Anyway, diminished with a borrowed note on either the 7, 2, 4, b6

That would be V13b9 to I in C major - B-F-Ab-E, a common jazz chord.

[joe2758]

Yeah the rule is doing an augmented 6th there already. Then I saw the rule further in that said add a 4th.

so in minor it's a french 6, in major it's just 7 but lower the bass note and you get the same french 6.

i dunno, making connections is satifying

[joe2758]

That would be V13b9 to I in C major - B-F-Ab-E, a common jazz chord.

I'll let him know...

[Mick-7]

All those chords considered advanced in music theory classes are so simple.The Neapolitan chord is on the 4th degree and has a lowered 6th. That's it. I can change all my 4 chords to that (if going to 5) by changing 1 note without thinking. It's only one note different than a sub dom... much easier than a bII6 chord.

I don't follow you, the IV chord in a major key is major (F-A-C), not minor (F-Ab-C), so you'd have to lower both the 3rd and 6th of the scale to get the b11 chord (Db).

[joe2758]

The chord I'm discussing is a bII chord in first inversion in a minor key. So Amin

D-Bb-F... Bb major chord

The standard chord in this system/context is a D 6/3 chord:

D-B-F

So it is the standard chord but altering 1 note

traditionally in minor key

[James W]

The chord I'm discussing is a II chord in first inversion in a minor key. So Amin

D-Bb-F... Bb major chord

The standard chord in this system/context is a D 6/3 chord:

D-B-F

So it is the standard chord but altering 1 note

traditionally in minor key

I thought Neapolitan was flat II in first inversion? ...

[James W]

"Neapolitan is first inversion of flat II chord, ergo F, with D flat (flat 6)." (the "reply with quote" function did not work)

Right, Db/F in C major, but joe2758 said: "The Neapolitan chord is on the 4th degree and has a lowered 6th. That's it."

That would only be true if the IV chord were minor.

Yeah I deleted my post....

[joe2758]

Both are correct, James that was just an error, and Mick it is almost always in a minor key.

This approach bases everything off of the bass note of the moment without considering inversions. The intervals are from the bass note

if that helps

[Mick-7]

The chord I'm discussing is a bII chord in first inversion in a minor key. So Amin

D-Bb-F... Bb major chord

The standard chord in this system/context is a D 6/3 chord:

D-B-F

So it is the standard chord but altering 1 note

traditionally in minor key

So it's a locrian minor mode chord, the II chord in A locrian (= Bb major) - correction: Make that phrygian minor, the II chord in A phrygian (= F Major).

But is it always a triad (Bb) or can it be a 6th or 7th chord - Bb6 or Bb^7?

[pamosmusic]

So it's a locrian minor mode chord, the II chord in A locrian (= Bb major).

But is it always a triad (Bb) or can it be a 6th or 7th chord - Bb6 or Bb^7?

Put a pin in this post for the next time you rag on the theory heads, mick.

[joe2758]

I have only seen it as a triad, but suspensions sound great.

In my mind I label that chord with a 9th (from the bass)the Scriabin chord (I learned from a video), but the 9 resolves down before going to the next chord

Here i do 3 examples, first regular then with one changed note

That one note makes a huge change!

[Christian Miller]

Yeah the rule is doing an augmented 6th there already. Then I saw the rule further in that said add a 4th.

so in minor it's a french 6, in major it's just 7 but lower the bass note and you get the same french 6.

i dunno, making connections is satifying

Yeah it’s very pretty

John Mortensen covers two basic versions of the minor RO in the PGTHI - what he calls a Baroque and Gallant variant. The Gallant variant has the augmented sixth, and the Baroque just has a diatonic 6 or 6 4 3 there. It’s one note different.

Now baroque composers did use aug 6th, but the aug 6th does make it sound a bit more Classical.


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[joe2758]

Chopin goes to it in a really cool way: in c major

C- Ab7 (as a german 6) but resolved like a 7 chord to Db

And also C-G7- deceptive thing to Db

all root position

[Christian Miller]

This is a good video btw

[Mick-7]

Put a pin in this post for the next time you rag on the theory heads, mick.

I think you're referring to the thread in which we examined a single line improvisation (solo), and I said that theoretical knowledge will have limited usefulness for learning to improvise like that. But theory is much more useful when applied to harmony and improvising with chords.

This is a good video btw

How does the SNL comedian fit in? Did he bring the ice cream? And is the Neapolitan chord chocolate?

[joe2758]

This is a good video btw

at 1:09 a 4th grader rightly underlined the word Crotch

[Christian Miller]

at 1:09 a 4th grader rightly underlined the word Crotch

Bold of you to assume that wasn’t a fully grown musician.


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