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After watching the vid, looks like it should be called the Orfeo chord. I like that they don't mention bII until the last 2 mins.
Ice cream jokes were a little cloying...(pun intended, but they really were)
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11-16-2025 08:14 PM
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quick note, the French 6th is a little too much for the basic strict rules. I think it still works, but teacher not liking it. I'm a little too free with my non-harmonic tones it looks like (I often don't prepare them). I think how I use them would generally be accepted for more romantic, though. I do believe in solid basics so I just need to reign it in for now, even if it's a little boring sounding.
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Yes - the 4 (A in this case) has to be prepared in the previous chord as it is a dissonance. Resolving it is probably more intuitive as it goes neatly to the V chord. Note that Fenaroli/Ewald Demeyre can't be bothered about staying in four parts haha - Ewald is translating the (pedagogical figures) very exactly and Fenaroli gives 6 3 not 8 6 3. But the A is there.
Originally Posted by joe2758
The Rule of the Octave in Minor According to Fenaroli – Essays on Music
As a guitarist I am DOWN with this.
You can double the A at the octave in the 6 3 chord on the b7.
No idea about the romantic usage but I would expect it to be freer. I would say that when I do go for a Romantic thing it feels liberating. And that's quite apt I think?
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What do they call the chord (Eb7b5) that is circled?
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What did they call it in the eighteenth century? A #6 4 3 chord on E flat AFAIK. (The ordering of the figures here is pedagogical to indicate the voicing, usually they go biggest number to smallest in figures.) I don't think they had a special name for it. Originally Posted by Mick-7
What do they call the chord (Eb7b5) that is circled?
Crotch (titter ye not) called it a French sixth. It isn't really French. It's one of the augmented sixth chords which is why it is spelled with a C# not a D flat. The implication is that it resolves upward back to the D. However in later Western music (including jazz) we might go downwards to the C to make a D7 chord - ala the blues scale.
The Tristan chord is a really good example of one that resolves downwards in Romantic music. Sure there are loads more. I bet Mozart did it.
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It doesn't get a fancy name like the Neapolitan chord (bII inversion) discussed earlier? It is the V7 of the bII, which come to think of it, is the b5 sub of the V7 chord. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Do you translate this arcane stuff to jazz chord terminology?
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Ah! Ok so French 6 IS in the classic rules. It's just not in the Furno method. I didn't think it sounded very out there at all
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FWIW this has been my journey with Aug 6th chords
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Although in jazz, they do often just go STRAIGHT back to the root position I chord. I think this is because in the original tunes they moved to a cadential 6 4 (a second inversion tonic chord which is actually understood in modern classical theory to be a type of V chord) but jazzers just played things in root position.
It's something you often see with the old songbook material - it's much more classical. Jazzers then just play most of the chords in root position - especially in the bop era and beyond.
EDIT: nope, Out of Nowhere goes G Eb7 G in the song sheet... so yeah. That's a thing they did.
Same sort of thing happened to the cadential #IVo7 (eg F#o7) chord, which precedes a V64 (eg C/G) in classical harmony, but in jazz often goes straight back root position I (C).Last edited by Christian Miller; 11-17-2025 at 04:48 PM.
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except in jazz you don't usually get the resolution which is it's main feature, e.g. how often do you double a G note in a G7 chord?
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All those fancy names are apparently invented by Mr, ahem, Crotch in the early 19th century, and familiar to people who take undergraduate classical music theory. In partimento we just treat them as an alteration of basic harmony and we don't freak out. They come from chromatic embellishments of basic counterpoint and a common stylistic feature of the music of the 18th and 19th centuries. Originally Posted by Mick-7
But we inherited this stuff via the Tin Pan Alley songbook repertoire. In jazz we just name them as bVI dominant chords, and are done with it. But they are absolutely everywhere in the standards repertoire.
Here's my favourite example of a tune ENDING on one. There's always someone who tries to resolve this chord at the end of the tune when I play it though haha. Wimps!
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That's what I was getting at in post 321. It works and it's cool, but it's cool because it is a deviation from the old rules. For example the V7 of the bII isn't an augmented 6th because it wouldn't resolve like one. It would be setting an expectation for one and then going somewhere else Originally Posted by Mick-7
An Faug6 chord going to E major requires 2 E notes to resolve...you don't see it in jazz often
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See my comments above. Originally Posted by joe2758
My impression is by the end of the 18th century composers were pretty happy to "resolve" chords straight onto the dominant 7th. You see it a LOT in Mozart. Mozart is pretty jazz in the way he writes guide tones on cycling dominants - more so than Bach. Bach will totally write a series of V7 chords moving around the cycle for example, but he will tend to play nice with the counterpoint and resolve the dissonances before setting up the next. Mozart just lets the 3rd move chromatically down to the b7th of the next chord.
So I expect Mozart probably does the same in Aug 6th chords.
But the example of a French Sixth that doesn't resolve to the usual V chord but instead to the V7 is Wagner (ignoring the lower chromatic appogiaturas in the soprano)-
I'm certain there's many examples from before Wagner. I just don't know any.
It's apt when you consider the Aug 6th came from adding a chromatic passing tone to the Phrygian cadence that then just became its own chord to used much more freely. Seems to the way harmony naturally develops.
The Origins of the Augmented 6th Chord | How Composers Use Series | The Soundtrack of History - YouTube
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I guess I just sort of thought of those things as a movement..so resolving a aug6 anywhere else is interrupting the movement as a surprise. Same as if you go C-G7-but then surprise by resolving like a aug 6th to Gb. And i'd say it's the same as jazz except they each have idiomatic voiceleading
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That's because you are currently in the early 18th century haha. Originally Posted by joe2758
Nothing in musical grammar is immutable... it's cool how you can see how things developed.
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I guess I just sort of figured that's what we're doing, I mean I understand jazz harmony just fine and how far you can stretch it. I'm just trying to see how far my idols would stretch it and not go too far past that Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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you turned me into this i was trying to use Barry Harris! lol
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I feel I'm learning more about it all the time. Originally Posted by joe2758
Yeah, I think it's good to do the strict thing if you want to get away from the jazz approach to understand these historical European aspects.and how far you can stretch it. I'm just trying to see how far my idols would stretch it and not go too far past that
Which means going pre-romantic. Romantic composers were absolutely revolutionary in the way they repurposed the furniture of Common Practice music... but what I've come to understand is how much they were rooted in the previous music and its strictures, and it wouldn't have worked if they hadn't been.
At least that's what I found with my own studies. But I am TBF mostly interested in baroque music in this. At least for the moment.
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Yeah exactly, that's why I am so glad you directed my approach from jazz backward to romantic, to classical up to romantic. It makes a lot more sense.
If I came at it from more freedom to less it would be unnatural. I would lose some of the elegance created by restraint.
As where romantic should feel like a freeing of the past (classical).
When I was arranging jazz standards I kept stretching my harmonizations because it took more and more to sound interesting.
Now that simple major and minor chords are being used, a single "tritone sub" sounds impressive as where in jazz it's not even hardly noticeable.
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Here's an old example, because I tried to make all the harmony interesting, I wasn't able to make anything stand out besides like a tone cluster or something
edit: apparently i loved 7b5 chords back then too lol
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I don't know if I agree - if you are talking about bop for example.... Tritones subs aren't all over the music - they are used quite sparingly. Originally Posted by joe2758
Dissonance and alterations are the spice on what is actually quite a diatonic approach to music. Parker spends way more time in the diatonic key then you might think from his reputation... I mean he plays a lot of stuff based on the triads too.... Take the blues for instance. Parker's approach to the blues is quite major key - rather like the musicians before him (such as Louis), and he used the dominant chord functionally most of the time. He obviously had an ear for old school harmony as well as blues.
Later players treat the blues more as a dominant sort of thing, which necessitates more chromatic tension moving to chord IV for instance. I think it's more of a modern chord scale thing. Everything becomes more of a colour ... the harmony becomes less directional because everything is equal .
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That's pretty hip. I mean it's more adventurous than the way I tend to harmonise jazz standards. Originally Posted by joe2758
One thing I notice about Monk (the 7b5 king) is that he will play these mad chords and then just tenths or simple triads and sixth chords or something. And it all hangs together not through conventional tension and release but some weird logic of its own.
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I'll chalk it up being a problem of my own arranging. I over used subs.
I would use G7, Bb7, Db7, E7 with or without a b5 and or b9 completely interchangeably. Or any of their related minor 6 chords. Then I'd borrow notes ON those chords. No regard for the bass of a chord besides a smooth movement etc...
They start to lose their meaning
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Bit of yin, a bit of yang Originally Posted by joe2758
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That chord apparently puts small dogs to sleep too, not permanently I hope, the one in the video barely moved after he played it. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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