Chopin Barry Harris analysis

[Tal_175]

Like I mentioned earlier in the thread I basically base everything off 3rds, 6ths, and 10ths. (Fernando Sor said 3rds and 6ths are his personal entire secret of creating harmony, which happens to work well for the 6th diminished scale.)

I think the 3rds and 6ths thing is about avoiding parallel 5ths and octave movements. The "avoid intervals" of species counterpoint. That of course doesn't mean people who use 3rds and 6ths know or care about species counterpoint. Most people intuitively find harmonization using parallel movements of 5th and octaves boring.

[Christian Miller]

I did find this https://a.co/d/bjggdSR but it says about "Schenkerian structural analyses" which does not sound fun or interesting lol. Can you read the book and summarize for me?

Edit: Damn, maybe I should tough it out; there is one in the series for Schubert, Schumann, and Mendelssohn!

Don’t know much about Schenker tbh. This is a school of thought about common practice music that was formulated in the early 20th century so they don’t show up on my radar. It doesn’t interest me.

I think they like that stuff at classical music college. I file it more in the ‘musicology and theory’ pile than ‘being able to invent music’ pile.

So if it were me I wouldn’t bother if one’s aim is to improvise or compose common practice music. None of those guys used it. I’d rather listen to what CPE Bach or someone has to say.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Christian Miller]

I think the 3rds and 6ths thing is about avoiding parallel 5ths and octave movements. The "avoid intervals" of species counterpoint. That of course doesn't mean people who use 3rds and 6ths know or care about species counterpoint. Most people intuitively find harmonization using parallel movements of 5th and octaves boring.

I think more people enjoy music with parallel fifths in than listen to classical music lol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[James W]

Don’t know much about Schenker tbh. This is a school of thought about common practice music that was formulated in the early 20th century so they don’t show up on my radar. It doesn’t interest me.

I think they like that stuff at classical music college. I file it more in the ‘musicology and theory’ pile than ‘being able to invent music’ pile.

So if it were me I wouldn’t bother if one’s aim is to improvise or compose common practice music. None of those guys used it. I’d rather listen to what CPE Bach or someone has to say.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Don't know about it but dismiss it nonetheless?

[Tal_175]

I think more people enjoy music with parallel fifths in than listen to classical music lol.

I don't consider avoiding parallel 5ths in harmonization as esoteric a notion as you seem to find. I think it is a notion exercised by a wide range of musicians from pop music arrangers to Peter Bernstein.

[Christian Miller]

Phewph! Knowing my goals and vibe, what couple books do I need? I mean you sort of fired off a lifetime of study lol!

Well I mean, they taught this to kids. Very talented ones, of course, but I don't see why we can't get something out of it, even while accepting we'll always be a bit amateur with this stuff.

The figured bass stuff is really not hard, provided you think about it in terms of intervals above the bass and don't worry about what chord it is with what root. You've done the heavy lifting by working on the species counterpoint stuff already. I go through some of the Mattei stuff here:

I have to admit though, I am still sort of clinging to this BH/Chopin thing just because it seems to be working. Even though of course I know that's not how Chopin thought, and I'm looking at things backward, I still think it's cool how I am almost automatically am adding harmony that would be considered complicated from a classical perspective.

If it works for you! There's definitely an overlap.

I think the thing I am trying to say is the harmony isn't that complicated if you don't look at it from the viewpoint of chords. If you look at the way the voices move between the chords, they are moving up and down by half steps and whole steps, resolutions delayed sometimes. That's what the figured bass says - the 7th is dissonant and resolves to a 6, which sets up another 7th and so on. There's a lot of this in the Chopin. This is an extension of one of the simple 'nice things' you learn when going up and down the scale that I cover in the video.

The books I would 100% recommend is Harmony, Counterpoint, Partimento by Job IJzerman and the Pianists Guide to Historic Improvisation by John Mortensen which are both how-to guides and not overly scholarship oriented. They are unfortunately for keyboardists but they can be adapted.

Also Figured Bass for Classical Guitar by Peter Croton.

[James W]

Most people intuitively find harmonization using parallel movements of 5th and octaves boring.

How many billions of times has 'Smells Like Teen Spirit' been streamed?

[Tal_175]

How many billions of times has 'Smells Like Teen Spirit' been streamed?

Can you elaborate on the parallel 5th harmonization use in Smells Like Teen Spirit? Are you talking about the use of power chords with distortion?

[James W]

Can you elaborate on the parallel 5th harmonization use in Smells Like Teen Spirit? Are you talking about the use of power chords with distortion?

No need to elaborate when you appear to already know.

[Tal_175]

No need to elaborate when you appear to already know.

I was wondering if you were making a more nuanced harmonic observation or talking about distortion power chords.
I don't think it makes much sense to analyze distortion power chords with respect to voice movements within harmony. There is a particular effect achieved with the combination of power chords and distortion that blends the voices together to create a thick and raw movement of the bass note which harmonizes the vocals. The power chord and the voice combined sound more like two part harmonization.

[MinToyTot]

There is a particular effect achieved with the combination of power chords and distortion that blends the voices together...

This was part of Schoenberg's reasoning for accepting parallel consonances (in some instances); he brought up "organum" which I know nothing about but which apparently made extensive use of the thickening effect at some point. This appears in his Theory Of Harmony which I have been enjoying for a couple months now and is very practically minded even while providing stylistic restrictions based on "the old ways" of common practice. He actually seemed to consider himself something of an uneducated pragmatist when it came to music theory!

[James W]

I was wondering if you were making a more nuanced harmonic observation or talking about distortion power chords.
I don't think it makes much sense to analyze distortion power chords with respect to voice movements within harmony. There is a particular effect achieved with the combination of power chords and distortion that blends the voices together to create a thick and raw movement of the bass note which harmonizes the vocals. The power chord and the voice combined sound more like two part harmonization.

Nevertheless it remains the case that many, many people, myself included, do not find the parallel fifths in that song or others boring, and I'm afraid the fact that there is more to the texture than the guitar does not somehow cancel out the fact of those parallel fifths and octaves.

I enjoy similar uses e.g those of Perotin and Debussy.

[Christian Miller]

This was part of Schoenberg's reasoning for accepting parallel consonances (in some instances); he brought up "organum" which I know nothing about but which apparently made extensive use of the thickening effect at some point. This appears in his Theory Of Harmony which I have been enjoying for a couple months now and is very practically minded even while providing stylistic restrictions based on "the old ways" of common practice. He actually seemed to consider himself something of an uneducated pragmatist when it came to music theory!

I’ve read Harmonielehre about 30 years ago. Maybe time to revisit…

I think Fundamentals of Musical Composition is my favourite by him.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Christian Miller]

Nevertheless it remains the case that many, many people, myself included, do not find the parallel fifths in that song or others boring, and I'm afraid the fact that there is more to the texture than the guitar does not somehow cancel out the fact of those parallel fifths and octaves.

I enjoy similar uses e.g those of Perotin and Debussy.

I mean power chords are an obvious example, but there’s quite a pointed use of parallel fifths in the vocal harmonies of this one at 1:24

It grinds me gears, which i also find very funny. I hear harmony like a French duke haha. I have only myself to blame.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CliffR]

I was wondering if you were making a more nuanced harmonic observation or talking about distortion power chords.
I don't think it makes much sense to analyze distortion power chords with respect to voice movements within harmony. There is a particular effect achieved with the combination of power chords and distortion that blends the voices together to create a thick and raw movement of the bass note which harmonizes the vocals. The power chord and the voice combined sound more like two part harmonization.

The power chords in the intro to Smells Like Teen Spirit are played without distortion.

[joe2758]

Ok, I haven't looked at figured bass in 20 years, but here is an example of a shot at the Chopin one you posted. Then, I went back and retroactively put chord names.

You can see I don't try to force everything into a chord, a lot of it is non-harmonic tones resolving here and there. I appreciate that these moving voices are the key.

But, a harmonic progression still results, and what that will allow me to do is improvise using embelishments/non harmonic tones in various voices.

I sketched this out without a guitar handy, but I bet it sounds ok. I also bet if someone was masterful with ornamentations it would convincingly sound like Chopin.

[joe2758]

The books I would 100% recommend is Harmony, Counterpoint, Partimento by Job IJzerman and the Pianists Guide to Historic Improvisation by John Mortensen which are both how-to guides and not overly scholarship oriented. They are unfortunately for keyboardists but they can be adapted.

Also Figured Bass for Classical Guitar by Peter Croton.

Perfect! Thanks

[Tal_175]

The power chords in the intro to Smells Like Teen Spirit are played without distortion.

Yes there it is used as an intro riff to motivically set up the rhythm guitar. There is a reason acoustic power chords aren't the commonly preferred voicings to harmonize entire tunes outside of particular short segments for effect.

[Tal_175]

Nevertheless it remains the case that many, many people, myself included, do not find the parallel fifths in that song or others boring, and I'm afraid the fact that there is more to the texture than the guitar does not somehow cancel out the fact of those parallel fifths and octaves.

I enjoy similar uses e.g those of Perotin and Debussy.

Sure I am not disagreeing with what type of music you prefer to listen to. I was disagreeing with the fact that Smell like Teen Spirit was a proof of your point.

[joe2758]

I love the turn this discussion has taken lol

[CliffR]

Yes there it is used as an intro riff to motivically set up the rhythm guitar. There is a reason acoustic power chords aren't the commonly preferred voicings to harmonize entire tunes outside of particular short segments for effect.

Listen, Tal. I dated a woman who sang a duet with Curt Cobain, so please don't go Nirvanasplaining to me .

But seriously, you do have the habit of continually twisting and turning and modifying your position during any debate so as to avoid ever saying something along the lines of 'You know, you're right, I never thought of that'.

[James W]

Sure I am not disagreeing with what type of music you prefer to listen to. I was disagreeing with the fact that Smell like Teen Spirit was a proof of your point.

You have yet to convincingly explain your original assertion that people in general find parallel fifths and octaves boring. The Nirvana tune features both of these things and loads of people appear not to find it boring. NB using distortion does not somehow cancel out the fact that it uses parallel fifths and octaves.

[Tal_175]

This type of thing can be demonstrated very easily. Take a diatonic, tonal melody. First harmonize it with diatonic parallel chords where the root is doubled. This harmonization will have parallel fifths and octaves. Then experiment with harmonizing the same melody by avoiding parallel fifths and octaves. Use inversions and 6ths.

The first harmonization will work. But to most people it'll sound bland and vanilla compared to the second effort. Does that mean you'll never hear parallel fifths in popular recordings? There are a variety of reasons that you will:
- There is a market for boring and vanilla.
- There is more to an arrangement than the movement of a particular voice. There could be a lot more going on that occupy a listeners attention at any given point than a particular movement of a voice. Especially in ensemble music.
- An arrangement that has room for improvement can still be enjoyable.

When we talk about a device, we are isolating the effect to see its nature. For example when one says voice leading is important, one isn't claiming that it is impossible for a folk singer with a capo to make enjoyable music without voicing their cowboy grips with good voice leading practices.

[Tal_175]

You have yet to convincingly explain your original assertion that people in general find parallel fifths and octaves boring. The Nirvana tune features both of these things and loads of people appear not to find it boring. NB using distortion does not somehow cancel out the fact that it uses parallel fifths and octaves.

I cannot possibly make my point regarding the Nirvana tune more clearly. So I have nothing to add there.

[James W]

This type of thing can be demonstrated very easily. Take a diatonic, tonal melody. First harmonize it with diatonic parallel chords where the root is doubled. This harmonization will have parallel fifths and octaves. Then experiment with harmonizing the same melody by avoiding parallel fifths and octaves. Use inversions and 6ths.

The first harmonization will work. But to most people it'll sound bland and vanilla compared to the second effort. Does that mean you'll never hear parallel fifths in popular recordings? There are a variety of reasons that is not the case.
- There is a market for boring and vanilla.
- There is more to an arrangement than the movement of a particular voice. There could be a lot more going on that occupy a listeners attention at any given point than a particular movement of a voice. Especially in ensemble music.
- An arrangement that has room for improvement can still be enjoyable.

When we talk about a device, we are isolating the effect to see it's nature. For example when one says voice leading is important, one isn't claiming that it is impossible for a folk singer with a capo to make enjoyable music without voicing their cowboy grips with good voice leading practices.

You're contradicting yourself - you believe that you can speak on behalf of most people in your judgement of these intervals as 'bland and vanilla' while at the same time admitting that there is a market for these things.