Chopin Barry Harris analysis

[joe2758]

Another cool dissertation on this subject https://theguitar-blog.com/wp-conten...mpositions.pdf

[joe2758]

I have a lesson scheduled with a certain Chopin improv pianist tomorrow!

Very excited. He actually suggested analyzing a Barrios piece with me and regarded his work as very true to the style. Of course it is true, but I have sort of avoided him because of generalities I made such as it is all too hard to play and there is too much of a Spanish influence in the sound for my taste.

The preludes I found are actually closer to what I am looking for than the Mertz harmonically, and not beyond my technical ability...for the most part.

Making arrangements of Chopin I am finding too time consuming, mostly in trying to practice actually playing them. So I purchased a book of very simplified Chopin for guitar book which is much more enjoyable. I will compare them to the full scores later.

I have a little more on my plate than I was aiming for: 4 pieces, interval and sequences type work, and analysis (a tiny bit of piano), so composing and arranging is on hold for now. I want to trend toward improvising, and then approach composing from that. Composing and then having to practice the pieces for weeks seems backward.

And then I am also considering taking a 6 month partimento course with a guitarist and lutenist, but I'm not 100% sold yet.

[joe2758]

To stay relevant to the topic of this thread, here is a connection I have made.

The basic harmonizing of the scale from the classical theory I'm studying is based off of intervals from the bass note, not inversions of chords:

1. 3/5 (a 3rd and 5th above the bass note, CEG)
2. 3/6
3. 3/6
4. 3/6 (or 5)
5. 3/5
6. 3/6
7. 3/6 (or 5)

Then the 6th dim scale

1. 3/6
2. b5/6
3. 4/6
4. b3/4
5. 2/6
b6. 2/6
6. 7
7. b7

I don't know if this is technically correct, and i didn't check for mistakes, but it seems from this perspective there is actually a big difference. Even if one were to leave out the b6 chord. I think the biggest difference between applying 6th dim scale to jazz and applying to classical romantic is the strictness of voiceleading and resolutions.

I will ask about this at my lesson if I can.

A 6th diminished rule of the octave?

[joe2758]

2 million views and no discussion?

Schedule didn't work out with the piano teacher. I can't even tell you how disappointed I am.

I am finding the rule of the octave helpful even though it is classical based.

It basically leads to a Sor style which I would consider "step one." I am finding it is not difficult to make it sound convincingly romantic with chromatic notes in the harmony. Even improvising!

And so I joined a 6month partimento group/class/teacher online (Partimento guitar and lute specialist). Because I am convinced the stuff is easily altered to be romantic, and there is a ton of evidence that this is how Barrios approached it.

As for the 6th dim scale, I would say I no longer think of it as such so much as adding the b6 degree in choice places.

There's some cool harmony stuff right in the RO such as augmented 6 chords and augmented 4th tonic chord (!).

[Christian Miller]

This just dropped

Szymon is one of the more practical and accessible classical improv YouTubers. He knows what chord symbols are for instance haha. I like his channel a lot.

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[joe2758]

Thank you!

I read this:

"Some years later he wrote the Esercizi d'armonia in 42 partimenti nume-
rati (Harmony Exercises with Forty-two Figured Partimenti, [1867]). With this
work, Boucheron, like Platania, tried to meld the eighteenth-century parti-
mento tradition with nineteenth-century harmonic innovations. But unlike
Platania - whose work, as mentioned, grew out of the authentic Neapolitan
tradition - Boucheron made use of only parts of the Neapolitan tradition,
using them in a different context, one deeply influenced by German and
French music"


Are you good at digging up historical stuff like this? I can't find the Boucheron or Platania works


Here's one of the Boucheron, looks like fun. Why is there two bass lines though?

we should both realize it and discuss!

Example 9. boucheron, esercizi d’armonia, partimento no. 40,

[Christian Miller]

Thank you!

I read this:

"Some years later he wrote the Esercizi d'armonia in 42 partimenti nume-
rati (Harmony Exercises with Forty-two Figured Partimenti, [1867]). With this
work, Boucheron, like Platania, tried to meld the eighteenth-century parti-
mento tradition with nineteenth-century harmonic innovations. But unlike
Platania - whose work, as mentioned, grew out of the authentic Neapolitan
tradition - Boucheron made use of only parts of the Neapolitan tradition,
using them in a different context, one deeply influenced by German and
French music"


Are you good at digging up historical stuff like this? I can't find the Boucheron or Platania works


Here's one of the Boucheron, looks like fun. Why is there two bass lines though?

we should both realize it and discuss!

Example 9. boucheron, esercizi d’armonia, partimento no. 40,

I’ll have a crack at it

The second staff gives the fundamental bass - ie the chord roots.


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[Christian Miller]

Also don’t sleep on Stanislao Mattei


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[joe2758]

Right off the bat, I notice he is spelling out very specifically the voicings by including things like "10th" or "12ths"

Also, so far looks similar to what I'm doing which is great news, i.e. just adding chromaticism to something otherwise standard

[Christian Miller]

Right off the bat, I notice he is spelling out very specifically the voicings by including things like "10th" or "12ths"

Who is, sorry?

[joe2758]

Looking at the Boucheron example above.

I extrapolating some "rules' from this passage that I think will be a good way to think about romanticizing this stuff.

*puts on powdered wig

If a 6th descendeth to a 5th, thou might play the b5 and 7th of the former, then the 4 and#6 before descending.

[joe2758]

But seriously, if anyone has any ideas of how I might find this please help me out

Esercizi d'armonia in 42 partimenti nume-
rati (Harmony Exercises with Forty-two Figured Partimenti, [1867])

by Boucheron

[Christian Miller]

Sorry bro. Wrapping birthday presents


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[joe2758]

I e-mailed the library in Bologna.

[joe2758]

I had a lesson with my partimento teacher to play my realizations and he was like

"Oh...ok, but don't write anymore-- you're supposed to just play it"

As in, don't work it out on paper at all.

Well, that certainly changes things.

[Christian Miller]

I had a lesson with my partimento teacher to play my realizations and he was like

"Oh...ok, but don't write anymore-- you're supposed to just play it"

As in, don't work it out on paper at all.

Well, that certainly changes things.

Who is your partimento teacher?

(FWIW I never write them out myself.)


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[joe2758]

teacher

[Christian Miller]

Don’t know that guy, cool


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[joe2758]

Man, modern university music education is garbage.

[Christian Miller]

Man, modern university music education is garbage.

What made you think that in particular?


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[joe2758]

What made you think that in particular?


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Sparked by reading this book:

Child Composers in the Old Conservatories (How orphans became elite musicians) by Robert Gjerdingen

Comparing the historical context is obviously beyond apples and oranges.

It's possible for a person to graduate with a B.A. in music performance with tens of thousands of dollars in debt, and not even be very good by professional standards. Just an example

[joe2758]

Cool new video from my teacher.

[Christian Miller]

Sparked by reading this book:

Child Composers in the Old Conservatories (How orphans became elite musicians) by Robert Gjerdingen

Comparing the historical context is obviously beyond apples and oranges.

It's possible for a person to graduate with a B.A. in music performance with tens of thousands of dollars in debt, and not even be very good by professional standards. Just an example

Ah Gjerdingen, he’s on that kick

Tbh I have no idea how much of a strawman this is myself, as I didn’t do a music degree per se.

I suspect it depends and if you are lucky to get a good composition teacher you will learn useful stuff.

I learned a tremendous amount by reading the ABRSM classical theory books. Useful stuff that I use today when analysing jazz standards etc. so I’m not anti Roman numerals etc.

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[Christian Miller]

Sparked by reading this book:

Child Composers in the Old Conservatories (How orphans became elite musicians) by Robert Gjerdingen

Comparing the historical context is obviously beyond apples and oranges.

It's possible for a person to graduate with a B.A. in music performance with tens of thousands of dollars in debt, and not even be very good by professional standards. Just an example

We can’t expect today’s musicians to learn the way the kids did in the Neapolitan conservatoires. Music is much more diverse now, too. OTOH I feel the most important think we can learn from that history is not so much how to teach solfeggio or moti di bassi - but the practical nature of that teaching, which has so much in common with jazz.

And then using that practical background as a way into analysing and appreciating music.

That said they have started teaching partimento at some colleges. A friend does I. So they are coming around to it hopefully. But it’s hard - you have professors who can write out a suspension chain but can’t play it on their instruments, and students who don’t see the point.


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[joe2758]

I went to school for music performance right out of high school and literally purchased my first classical guitar after I started the program. I couldn't sight sing anything. I couldn't sight read, I could barely read music at all. After 2 years I would say I was at about an appropriate level to audition for music school. Toward the end, I visited a 4 year school and watched their guitar ensemble. They weren't any better than ours. I have seen players with masters degrees who were not impressive. These are music performance majors I'm talking about.

Why? Obviously because the schools can make money.

I finished literally not knowing it was possible to improvise classical music, or to compose it without sitting down with paper and a quill pen.

It was never even suggested we should be playing the theory exercises on our instruments.

I was taking a "conducting" class after I had only been able to read music for a year and a half.