Chopin Barry Harris analysis

[joe2758]

One book I started reading claims Chopin used a whole harmonic system based on common tone chromatic mediants. It is just a little too over my head at the moment. By David Kopp. Might be up your ally?
https://a.co/d/4zz86dP

can you read this thing and summarize it in a 5 minute youtube video please?

[Christian Miller]

One book I started reading claims Chopin used a whole harmonic system based on common tone chromatic mediants. It is just a little too over my head at the moment. By David Kopp. Might be up your ally?
https://a.co/d/4zz86dP

can you read this thing and summarize it in a 5 minute youtube video please?

Well I can't afford it and also it looks like academic music theory which I'm not really into.

When Chopin uses a chromatic mediant chord - there'll be a rhetorical aspect to it like anything in music. It's about the rhetoric really, and that's were the partimento and schemata thing is different from functional analysis.

I think the Chopin thing is more your journey than mine, but I'm interested in hearing about it and getting involved as best I can.

My approach would be start small, try things, compare to written music. See what I else I can pick up. Beg, borrow and steal. Michael (En Blanc et Noir) is great for that. I also liked the tone of the link I included above 'the things and mess with them' that's more up my alley.

[joe2758]

Can you expand on what you mean by rhetoric?

[Christian Miller]

Can you expand on what you mean by rhetoric?

The way a piece of music speaks? The cadences and sequences and phrases and so on all come together to make a communicative piece of music, I guess.

So the opening statement of a piece works differently to the closing part of the piece and so on.

[joe2758]

The way a piece of music speaks? The cadences and sequences and phrases and so on all come together to make a communicative piece of music, I guess.

So the opening statement of a piece works differently to the closing part of the piece and so on.

So, was your point that when he uses the chromatic chords, it isn't just thrown in wherever? Like, it needs to be in its proper context?

[Christian Miller]

So, was your point that when he uses the chromatic chords, it isn't just thrown in wherever? Like, it needs to be in its proper context?

Yeah this is true of all harmony really, harmony feeds into form and form really has to do with rhetoric.

Think of a poem or a great speech. To understand that you really need to get into Chopin’s music and study it a lot. I … haven’t done this. I know a bit more about baroque stuff which is linked.

That said romantic music in general is certainly not alien to me….

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[joe2758]

Here is a thing from the music theory website I am working on:

"Common-tone diminished seventh chords are different from normal fully diminished seventh chords, because usually fully diminished seventh chords are tonicizing leading-tone chords. In a
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o7

chord, every voice resolves stepwise to a different pitch in the tonicized chord.In a common-tone diminished seventh chord, at least one of the notes remains in the chord of resolution. That means the common-tone diminished seventh chord isn't functioning as a leading-tone chord, but rather as a voice-leading chord."

Just like the Barry Harris thing

[Christian Miller]

Here is a thing from the music theory website I am working on:

"Common-tone diminished seventh chords are different from normal fully diminished seventh chords, because usually fully diminished seventh chords are tonicizing leading-tone chords. In a
vii

o7

chord, every voice resolves stepwise to a different pitch in the tonicized chord.In a common-tone diminished seventh chord, at least one of the notes remains in the chord of resolution. That means the common-tone diminished seventh chord isn't functioning as a leading-tone chord, but rather as a voice-leading chord."

Just like the Barry Harris thing

Sorry how is it like the Barry Harris thing? I’m not sure if I follow

Common tone diminished is like Co7 or Ebo7 going to C


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[joe2758]

biii dim for your example

But also, when he describes how major and minor 6 chords are derived by lowering and raising various notes of the dim chord

[joe2758]

So for example From the concept "lowering 3 consecutive notes of a diminished chord makes a min6 chord

[Christian Miller]

biii dim for your example

But also, when he describes how major and minor 6 chords are derived by lowering and raising various notes of the dim chord

Oh maybe the thing where you move from C6 to F6/C via Co7 and the voice leading thing is really smooth?

Like a Basie vamp intros

Barry didn’t invent this stuff of course it’s just no one else seems to teach it.


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[joe2758]

Practice log update. I made a waltz with the bassline Christian made, but I scrapped it. Cheesy melody. But I got some rhythm stuff out of it. For composing, I have a pretty solid process going.

Steal a bassline and form. Voice lead the progression to fit guitar. Add a top voice melody out of chord tones, then make it an actual melody with embellishments. Make a rhythm or figuration.

With that process sorted out, I'm starting a full length piece. I ripped off the first Nocturne and brought it up a half step.

3 voices for the figuration and one voice for the melody. In addition to the above I am adding more specifics such as the primary melody notes as guide posts, phrasing (ex 4,3, or 2 bar phrase etc) and notes like "chromatic run here." I think these extra details will really help me capture the vibe. Especially the phrasing and following rise and fall of the melody. I should probably steal rhythmic figures too.

All I can do is hope that this will lead to some improvisational ability. I'm not convinced it will, as making solo jazz arrangements never helped me improv in that style. So, toward that end I will keep working on interval sequences as it is obvious how that will lead to improv.

[joe2758]

Here's what that looks like. So from here I can compose pretty fluently. Any wrong accidentals is because I was transposing from Bb to B in my head, they don't turn up when I'm actually playing.

[joe2758]

I don't always use 6th chords anymore, but when I do it's because I can't voice lead something. (Dos Equis)

[Christian Miller]

I don't always use 6th chords anymore, but when I do it's because I can't voice lead something. (Dos Equis)

Yeah you get 6th chords on IV not on I


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[joe2758]

Yeah you get 6th chords on IV not on I


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That's really interesting because that is where I find myself needing them. The Barry stuff is a huge help, but it wouldn't be as good of a primary frame work as I initially thought.

Thanks again for putting me on the right track, I really feel a lot of inspiration and progress!

here are some of my takeaways:
1. Too much parallel motion ain't it
2. 6th in every chord ain't it
3. Bass is more important than the chord

[Christian Miller]

That's really interesting because that is where I find myself needing them. The Barry stuff is a huge help, but it wouldn't be as good of a primary frame work as I initially thought.

Thanks again for putting me on the right track, I really feel a lot of inspiration and progress!

here are some of my takeaways:
1. Too much parallel motion ain't it
2. 6th in every chord ain't it
3. Bass is more important than the chord

Innit!

No worries. I think there’s a lot of ways of using the maj6-dim in particular but the sort of block chord exercises we start with a really uniquely jazz.


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[joe2758]

I've been basically ignoring Mertz because his technique doesn't really suit mine (seems to use the A finger too much), but the music is too close to what I'm trying to do to disregard.

I won't be learning them to play well. I need to manage my time. But what I can do is rip him off.

So now I have Sor for my technique, Chopin for my musical ideal, and Mertz inbetween

[joe2758]

I just saw this thread has a quarter million views? Are there bots or something?

[joe2758]

Here's what that looks like..

and now here is an example of what I have been doing as a next step. The block chords and melodic idea. i dont bother writing out the figuration of the harmony. This is as far as I will write it out, and I hope eventually it can serve as a vehicle for improv. The A section of my nocturne. Check out that C# b13 to F# 9 b13 at the end. ooo mama

[joe2758]

Got my Mertz book today. It's really not that bad to play if you leave out all the hard parts.

[joe2758]

Wonderful! incidentally, looks like he plays a bunch of Mertz. I'm reading his thesis now.

[Christian Miller]

Wonderful! incidentally, looks like he plays a bunch of Mertz. I'm reading his thesis now.

Oh yeah a lot of guitarists have used Guliani as a model


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[joe2758]

So when I started this project, I was using the 6th dim scale in parallel motion as my foundation, and adding non-harmonic tones as my improv. That was working ok.

Now I am doing the same thing but using the rule of the octave as my foundation. Now I gotta see if I can make it romantic sounding with just chromatic non-harmonic tones. Obviously as it stands, it sounds like a perfectly classical base ala sor and friends. Now to make it Chopin or mertz.

I was hoping it would be as simple as adding in some b6 notes but it seems I'd have to completely change it to do that.

I like taking apart the chopin and making a piece based on the harmony, but it's too laborious to continue as a primary technique for making my compositions.

I think I need to make the analysis and composing secondary the improv techniques. Still doing both obviously.

Besides, Chopin's compositions came from improv

[joe2758]

checking out the Napoleon Coste etudes is interesting. He studied with Sor and his style of arpeggios seems to reflect that. But to be honest I don't hear much in the way of romantic style any more than in Sor, although of course there is some. Nothing compared to Mertz. I was hoping he would sound more like Mertz with Sor technique.

When I saw this quote today I totally lost interest in him.

Coste speaking of his late teacher Sor:

"Generally his works, which contain things of great beauty, especially in their introductions, are brought to a mediocre end. Almost all of his pieces contain some passages that are practically impossible. All-in-all, Sor has done more damage to the instrument than good. But nevertheless, his Etudes will remain the masterpiece of that genre."