Chopin Barry Harris analysis

[joe2758]

Aahhh this is turning into Thomas Echols elevator stuff but possible to play haha (3 voices)

oops should be E G A natural

Edit: in fact that's too hard I am going to skip that chord. I'll never be in a situation that justifies playing something that hard lol

[Christian Miller]

a "3-6" progression from the classical theory book, but with the 6th diminished scale.
https://youtube.com/shorts/IRnhrAKwY...u5AN46oQ7LXLsX

This is a lovely pattern. Bass moving in thirds? So A with a 5 3, C# with a 6 3 then B with a (b)5 3, F with a 6 3 and so on.

The obvious thing that I've struggled with a little bit with adapting this stuff to the Barry Harris scale is that the intervals morph as you go up (although the dim chord stays the same of course). So it seems like you need the conception of thinking about the two chords, maj6 and dim7 (as Barry taught it) rather than thinking in terms of an intervallic pattern. Although IIRC BH people do talk about '3rds' through the 8 note scale and so on.

[joe2758]

This is a lovely pattern. Bass moving in thirds? So A with a 5 3, C# with a 6 3 then B with a (b)5 3, F with a 6 3 and so on.

The obvious thing that I've struggled with a little bit with adapting this stuff to the Barry Harris scale is that the intervals morph as you go up (although the dim chord stays the same of course). So it seems like you need the conception of thinking about the two chords, maj6 and dim7 (as Barry taught it) rather than thinking in terms of an intervallic pattern. Although IIRC BH people do talk about '3rds' through the 8 note scale and so on.

Right, it hasn't been an issue for me if I just think "My 5th of the scale has a second that is its 3rd, and my 6th of the scale has a 7th that is its 6th" Not in so many words of course. You could think of it as diminished 3rd or augmented 6th etc. I don't think about chords unless I switch scales.

I memorized the scale in the same way we memorize the intervals of a diatonic scale

[Christian Miller]

Right, it hasn't been an issue for me if I just think "My 5th of the scale has a 3rd that is its second, and my 6th of the scale has a 7th that is its 6th"

If you say so chief haha

[joe2758]

it's not like that, I just memorized them like you would for any scale

all the thirds are minor except the root (major) and 5th (the weird one is what i call it in my head)

all the 6ths are major except the 3rd (minor) and the 6th (the weird one)

I'll tell you what's hard, true melodic minor!!

[Christian Miller]

it's not like that, I just memorized them like you would for any scale

all the thirds are minor except the root (major) and 5th (the weird one is what i call it in my head)

all the 6ths are major except the 3rd (minor) and the 6th (the weird one)

I'll tell you what's hard, true melodic minor!!

Yes, that’s nice. I suppose it would go to show the value of just practicing the intervals through the scale before building up to three and four voice harmonies which I have done, but I didn’t look at it like that


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[joe2758]

Yes, that’s nice. I suppose it would go to show the value of just practicing the intervals through the scale before building up to three and four voice harmonies which I have done, but I didn’t look at it like that


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The student has become the teacher. haha jk

I literally don't know how I will ever get melodic minor fluid with 6ths and 3rds.

Does the ascending descending rule only apply to stepwise motion?

[pcjazz]

Aahhh this is turning into Thomas Echols elevator stuff but possible to play haha (3 voices)

oops should be E G A natural

Edit: in fact that's too hard I am going to skip that chord. I'll never be in a situation that justifies playing something that hard lol

x 7 7 0 x x

[joe2758]

x 7 7 0 x x

Cool! At first I was like well that's just one key, but you could do it in A or E also couldn't you? plus the minors. That is worth keeping in mind!

[joe2758]

I found this AMAZING channel

[Christian Miller]

I found this AMAZING channel

You mean the channel I recommend several times on this thread haha?

God help me I finally watched an Echols video yesterday, so.... And right away - the 'elevator system' is a way of doing the same stuff in the BH scale as you get with the stuff in the IJzerman books etc. It's really very similar. You get these patterns where the one voice moves stepwise and the other voice moves up a 2nd, down a 3rd. That stuff is all over the moti de bassi and so on. Which is unsurprising I suppose, because the principles of counterpoint are similar.

We aren't necessarily interested in 'squeezebox' contrary motion (as Echols calls it) and many of the things we use are actually patterns that use a mix of parallel and contrary and/or oblique motion.

One of Echol's basic patterns (unison, third, third) with the top voice moving stepwise is a schema called a Do Re Mi by the Partimento people, the basis of many themes in classical music.

The difference with the BH scale is that 6ths aren't always 6ths etc (as noted above). It sort of makes sense to deal in drops and octave double voicings etc... In classical we use diatonic intervals. Although Barry students do say '3rd' throughout the scale that ends up being a 2nd one time, and so on, so maybe it's a more a skills issue on my part.

So I might say '6 3 pattern on a stepwise bass' and Echols might say 4th floor, 2nd floor (or 6th floor) - if I've got the terminology right. I'd say - shell, third (or drop 2)

Thanks for the pointers above btw Joe, it's actually redirected my interest towards the 6-dim harmony, so we've swapped. I'll probably end up reframing what Echols has done from the partimento/voice leading direction. Also I'll knock it all down to three voices, because I'm basic y'all. (TBF Barry said he was moving towards three voices.)

[joe2758]

You mean the channel I recommend several times on this thread haha?

Doh! Sorry about that.

Going between the diatonic and 6th dim for species counterpoint (I've been practicing on Artusi website, very cool), I'm finding I don't need to differentiate them as much as I thought.

I've been taking a completed counterpoint exercise following the classic rules, then adding chromatic devices. Then, I do a couple versions using the 6th dim scale.

Now, I can sort of swap them out thinking ( I think of dim7 as major 6th):

1. major third, major 6th
2. minor 3rd, major 6th
3. minor 3rd, minor 6th
4. major or minor 3rd, major 6th
5. major or weird 3rd, major 6th
(b6. min 3, maj 6)
6. minor 3rd, minor or weird 6th
7. minor 3rd, major or minor 6th

Keep us posted on here

esp regarding "I'll probably end up reframing what Echols has done from the partimento/voice leading direction. Also I'll knock it all down to three voices"

[joe2758]

There's a video of this Barry Harris style pianist who recently discovered partimento and was blown away apparently. He said was trying to tie it together like we kind of are. He said "I'm trying to bridge the gap between 1750 and 1950." and I'm like...how about 1850? lol

[joe2758]

D

I've been taking a completed counterpoint exercise following the classic rules, then adding chromatic devices. Then, I do a couple versions using the 6th dim scale.
"

quick example. https://youtube.com/shorts/rBgeP9Ns9...0XrR6oQcJzNGoW

[joe2758]

Oh I guess I should post some 6th dim version on same "theme.

https://youtube.com/shorts/aO9J8kByV...RasbPg8jxA_8rr

Christian, what do you think of these exercises as a method toward what I'm trying to do? right track?

[Christian Miller]

I want to buy some cake!

Oh, the exercises sound cool.

I would start to move towards making short pieces. If you watch Michael’s videos he provides frameworks to do that.

You can start with a short thematic idea, use a pattern and top off with a cadence. I’ve found working on this incredibly helpful.

So this video is a good model:

Just up the RO with a cadence

Preluding is also a good thing to work on

Humbly I try to demonstrate the general process here (in a more baroque style)

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[Christian Miller]

Here's a bass adapted from the Romantic Prelude video. I changed the cadence to something more 'conventional' but still (to me) Romantic sounding.



It's fun just to play arpeggios through and throw in a big scalar run at the end. If you move it to Am you can have fun with the Fauxbourdon thing he mentions in the video over a big E pedal.

Then come up with your own stuff... Michael's advice to write the bass line first is golden.

[joe2758]

Wow. I can't thank you enough. You're probably right about composing something cohesive and structured. I guess I just keep telling myself that I need to work up to it...but I need to jump in the water eventually.

I'm going to re-read through this thread and take stock of it.

As for Michael, what an extraordinary talent! Even his most simple examples are challenging so I was having a hard time picking one thing to start with. What you did above is perfect.

Opus #1 here I come!

[joe2758]

So looking at the first phrase of your "Chopinesque Bass," as what may be the basis for a figuration/opening.

I am only bringing this up now (instead of waiting to post something slightly more finished) because of the cadence I changed. My ear pulled hard to this and I know I have heard it multiple times. Maybe it's a cliche? For sure I have heard it at least twice in Sor. Is there a term for it like "ham-sandwich 6th" or something?

https://youtube.com/shorts/rfvlDA5GS...RyPsG9DDasweQr

[joe2758]

I'm an idiot. like at about 1 min in lol, same key and everything. No wonder I felt forced to do it!! still wonder what it is tho? damn. thought i was cool. At least i knew it was Sor.

But seriously how funny is that? My two influences for this style is Chopin and Fernando Sor. I realize chords for Chopin and it sounds like a Sor etude.

https://youtube.com/shorts/-LlYJgLsN...8FPgbLKfQv0s7p changed the cadence to this, which is what the original suggests as a cascade I think

[Christian Miller]

If I were you I’d steal a bunch of Sor and Merz things and put them on new basslines.


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[joe2758]

If I were you I’d steal a bunch of Sor and Merz things and put them on new basslines.


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do you mean change the bass of the piece, or take the bass and make a piece?

[Christian Miller]

Yeah just mix it up. Write your own basslines, get them from piece and partimenti. Otoh take surface elements from pieces and apply to basslines you write


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[joe2758]

This is a fun one btw

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Okay I studied this thoroughly. It's the most Barry Harris thing I have ever seen.

Em/B - A#dim A7 C#m/G# - Gdim F#7 A#m/E# etc

It uses a biii dim, lowers the bass to the root of a dom chord, and resolves down making a chain of minor third related minor chords.

Will be shedding this!

So far, a lot of the coolest stuff in this style uses the biii dim chord and its derivatives going to a minor chord.

I remember asking Alan Kingstone if BH ever mentioned a biii dim going to minor, and he said he didn't remember hearing it mentioned. I guess I have my answer now: it's awesome.

[Christian Miller]

Okay I studied this thoroughly. It's the most Barry Harris thing I have ever seen.

Em/B - A#dim A7 C#m/G# - Gdim F#7 A#m/E# etc

It uses a biii dim, lowers the bass to the root of a dom chord, and resolves down making a chain of minor third related minor chords.

Will be shedding this!

So far, a lot of the coolest stuff in this style uses the biii dim chord and its derivatives going to a minor chord.

I remember asking Alan Kingstone if BH ever mentioned a biii dim going to minor, and he said he didn't remember hearing it mentioned. I guess I have my answer now: it's awesome.

The biiio7 chord is also the #ivo7 of the previous key.

Apparently Bach uses it although not sure where

Barry Harris would just give you that ‘you dig?’ look.


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