Chopin Barry Harris analysis

[joe2758]

I don't think it is?

Well that's good at least, I've mostly been so active on here because I keep reading (what I interpret as knowing my own fallibility) is basically "You're going about this all wrong." Or that I'm over complicating it when I originally thought I was simplifying it.

In other news, I saw this clip and feel almost 100% vindicated!

[Tal_175]

Ok. Can you point me in the direction of some music that is polyphonic but not consisting of counterpoint? Because the only example you tried to illustrate your distinction didn't work, when it was revealed that a texture featuring some kind of accompaniment was in fact homophonic.

So, I admit, having looked into it further, this seems to be a more of a gray area than I thought it was. I was referring to counterpoint as independent lines following certain stylistic conventions and form (like fugue) where as polyphony as the texture of multiple lines regardless of the compositional style. It seems like the term counterpoint, is sometimes used to mean "traditional counterpoint" (as I believed it meant) but other times it means any form of polyphony.

Homophony is also sometimes used to mean harmonic support formed by chords following the same rhythm necessitating multiple chordal voices, in other contexts it is used in a more general way to include even a single line. So yes based on the latter definition, one dominant melodic line supported by another line outlining harmony would still be homophony. In that sense, Joe's composition in post #41 can be seen as homophony or counterpoint depending on how it's performed (since the bass voice can be played as a support of the high voice or as an independent melody but the former would be heard more easily I think).

[joe2758]

Giving the theory a rest to see if I can even still play a melody. This could be a decent motif maybe!

https://youtube.com/shorts/G1df56yRp...lCjaNmxoNQYUcQ

threw in a cadence for Christian at the end

[pamosmusic]

Hmm … the way I learned them in theory:

Polyphony: multiple voices moving in relative rhythmic independence

Homophony: a melody accompanied by multiple voices moving in relative rhythmic uniformity.

Monophony: a single melodic line.

Counterpoint: the technique of writing two or more interwoven, but relatively independent melodies — the method by which polyphony is achieved.

Im 100% these aren’t universal, but I think most people I know use them more or less this way.

Then again a lot of musicians I know also went to school with me. So there’s that.

[joe2758]

fwiw i learned it as described by Peter

[Christian Miller]

Hmm … the way I learned them in theory:

Polyphony: multiple voices moving in relative rhythmic independence

Homophony: a melody accompanied by multiple voices moving in relative rhythmic uniformity.

Monophony: a single melodic line.

Counterpoint: the technique of writing two or more interwoven, but relatively independent melodies — the method by which polyphony is achieved.

Im 100% these aren’t universal, but I think most people I know use them more or less this way.

Then again a lot of musicians I know also went to school with me. So there’s that.

This what I understand these terms to mean in everyday usage.

An example of polyphonic music that is not really thought of as counterpoint is the front line of a traditional jazz band.

OTOH...

Counterpoint is not necessarily about music with independent voices. In fact at one point it was the study of all harmony in western music. So if we go back to the 16th century we can find plenty of homophonic music that was written using counterpoint:

But the way that composers of that era viewed music was entirely in terms of counterpoint. (Figured bass did not yet exist even.)

The figured bass stuff I'm talking about above is a little bit different. Kind of a halfway house between modern harmonic theory and pure counterpoint I guess?

But in all these cases there was a repertoire of licks and devices composers could use.

[CliffR]

Hmm … the way I learned them in theory:

Polyphony: multiple voices moving in relative rhythmic independence

Homophony: a melody accompanied by multiple voices moving in relative rhythmic uniformity.

Monophony: a single melodic line.

Counterpoint: the technique of writing two or more interwoven, but relatively independent melodies — the method by which polyphony is achieved.

Im 100% these aren’t universal, but I think most people I know use them more or less this way.

So you're saying nobody has a monophony on the definitions.

[Tal_175]

My understanding of these terms aligns closely with Christian's post. After looking into them further however, it seems there's actually a consistent framework for how these concepts are organized—regardless of historical context, which sometimes differs from how they're commonly used.
To summarize:

• Polyphony refers to a texture with multiple voices that interact in an egalitarian way, each maintaining its own melodic identity.
• Counterpoint is the analysis and theory of polyphonic music.
• Homophony describes a texture where one clear melodic voice is supported by an accompanying voice or voices (or chords), emphasizing harmony over independence.

[joe2758]

Working arranging and playing Chopin. It is actually much more possible than I thought. I do it much more slowly and add more parts than I would if I was making something to perform, but keeping more voices helps get it in my ear.

Figures, first piece I pick (Nocturne 1) has 11/6 and 22/12 in measure 3 and 4. Lol

I decided not to blow it off, because it is an important part of the style. In fact it is a favorite in all of Chopin for me.

Obviously, it is meant to be played freely with complete independence of the hands. I can't do that.

Comparing recordings, I did notice similarities, and I was sure I could figure out a way to initially learn it and free it up from there. Here is what I cam up with and I think it is close as you can get to noting close to what is commonly recorded.



Which is a doable start

[joe2758]

Here's the rest of the passage of my notated rubato

Goal is half speed

How do you like that for a jazz line?!

[Christian Miller]

Do post your arrangements when they’re done!


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[joe2758]

Here's a page. I probably won't write any more out neatly like this unless someone else actually wanted to play it. I can just go off the score more or less with some scribbled notes.

I can't play it at tempo, (Although I got it over half at least) but a real classical player could. I would say it is about the level of an intermediate Bach piece.

[Christian Miller]

Here's a page. I probably won't write any more out neatly like this unless someone else actually wanted to play it. I can just go off the score more or less with some scribbled notes.

I can't play it at tempo, (Although I got it over half at least) but a real classical player could. I would say it is about the level of an intermediate Bach piece.

What’s that? Five of those funny b things? Guitarists can’t read in more than one flat, it’s science!!

In seriousness have you considered popping it up a semitone. Might make it easier to play. Any classical guitarists agree? Mr Amos?

It does seem customary to transpose keyboard music for classical guitar AFAIK

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[James W]

What’s that? Five of those funny b things? Guitarists can’t read in more than one flat, it’s science!!

In seriousness have you considered popping it up a semitone. Might make it easier to play. Any classical guitarists agree? Mr Amos?

It does seem customary to transpose keyboard music for classical guitar AFAIK

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Capos are your friend.

[joe2758]

nah

[joe2758]

You are right of course, A min would work great. I would probably pay someone to put it in a computer and auto transpose it if I were to do that. I would also consider the key if I was going to make a set though-- which I would do if I was going to perform them. Mostly just for my own study, primarily the 11/6 rubato run. For my own compositions and improvs I am shooting for the difficulty of a Sor study. Except maybe more complicated rhythms.

[James W]

Well, I use a capo for BWV 998. Bach wanted that key - E flat - after all, it fits with the 3s theme of that suite.

[joe2758]

Like I mentioned earlier in the thread I basically base everything off 3rds, 6ths, and 10ths. (Fernando Sor said 3rds and 6ths are his personal entire secret of creating harmony, which happens to work well for the 6th diminished scale.)

Most commonly I play a 3rd and a 6th on top (CEA) or a 6th with a 10th on top (CAE).

With these two voicings, I should be able to improvise passable voice leading by keeping it as simple as possible.

Unfortunately, using them haphazardly doesn't work, so I made some rules for myself to allow quick thinking in real time.

The rule is: close to open up, open to close down.

This means, when I am going from a close voice to an open voicing, the bass note goes down a step and my melody leaps up in contrary motion. Additionally I can leap down in the bass, and my melody steps up.

When going from an open voice to close voice, I step up in the bass to leap down in the melody, or leap up in the bass to step down in the melody.

The picture should clear it up

I also noticed:
1. If you play these in a pattern up the scale, it trends in the direction of the "leap"
2. In a pattern the diminished chords will be one voicing, and the the 6th the opposite.
Attachment 124713

I recorded the example
https://youtube.com/shorts/pq5xwg8us...pQ0BPaCqWvrCGu

Cool, this exact thing discussed in chapter 1 of the IJzerman

[Christian Miller]

Cool, this exact thing discussed in chapter 1 of the IJzerman

Thought you’d dig it


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[joe2758]

Alright here's one for you,
The book talks a lot about alternating 3rds and 6ths, or 10ths and 13ths.

But there is no mention or example of 6ths alternating with 10ths.

I didnt really go through the three part harmony section but it appears the the 6/3 chords are always CEA, never CAE


Is this something or nothing?

[Christian Miller]

Alright here's one for you,
The book talks a lot about alternating 3rds and 6ths, or 10ths and 13ths.

But there is no mention or example of 6ths alternating with 10ths.

I didnt really go through the three part harmony section but it appears the the 6/3 chords are always CEA, never CAE


Is this something or nothing?

Probably nothing. I can’t think of an example in the literature right now, but no reason you couldn’t do it


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[joe2758]

From Chopin himself:



What do you make of the 2nd item? Is he just saying practice diminished chords?

The footnote on that says "By this Chopin designates all disjunct intervals from the augmented 2nd (or minor 3rd, basic component of the diminished 7th chord) upwards: namely broken chords, arpeggios, other arpeggiated figures and all types of leap." It sounds important but what is it getting at?

[Christian Miller]

From Chopin himself:



What do you make of the 2nd item? Is he just saying practice diminished chords?

The footnote on that says "By this Chopin designates all disjunct intervals from the augmented 2nd (or minor 3rd, basic component of the diminished 7th chord) upwards: namely broken chords, arpeggios, other arpeggiated figures and all types of leap." It sounds important but what is it getting at?

Sounds like fingering for piano?


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[joe2758]

Sounds like fingering for piano?


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oh ok, I didn't know if there might be some sort of harmonic implication. FOMO, ya know?

[joe2758]

a "3-6" progression from the classical theory book, but with the 6th diminished scale.
https://youtube.com/shorts/IRnhrAKwY...u5AN46oQ7LXLsX