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Cliff, this is what you need to do if you can't hit the beat. Accept that it's trivial and unexciting, do the boring work and the flashy stuff will come easier.
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04-30-2026 01:04 PM
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AllanAllen,
I studied with James Chirillo for a couple of years. Mowed a couple of lawns and did house work to get the price of the lessons down. Went to the piano A LOT because half of each lesson session was about musicianship. Did a lot of slow metronome work. Worked a lot on connecting my notes as we played scales and triads out of the George Van Eps Me booklet. Not once did we open up a DAW to look at beat placement. There aren't too many people on this planet that know how to play a quarter note on the guitar quite like James Chirillo.
I've been very lucky to study with amazing musicians. Many of whom, we talk about on this forum. They never told me to open up a DAW to work on time feel--even the drummer I studied with a couple of years ago.
Using a DAW doesn't make sense to me. At least with all my crazy ear training shit, the bottom line was using my ears to develop my ears. Even with all the rhythm I talk about, the bottom line is hearing it all. Using a DAW to see time when we need to HEAR time when we perform in most performance situations seems... backwards, and not great pedagogy.
We all need to work on our time. I need to straighten out my feel. That means I gotta listen to musicians who have that feel and try and mimic all their nuances. Dexter Gordon and Clifford Brown. Straight, but laid back and legato. Slow transcription. Recording myself playing with their records to see if I can get "right on top" off their time feel and blend as one. That's the ticket.
Learn the music through the music, I once heard. DAW separates from that. DAW separates from the ear. The metronome might even separate from that, especially if its used as a crutch instead of a tool. Maybe Mike Longo and Jeff Berlin had a point? We have to "be our own best drummer."
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When did I say anything about using a DAW?
I thought I was suggesting Cliff turn the metronome to 80 and play half notes with dedication and intent. Open voice memo on your phone and record 1 scale. Then listen to how you do and adjust.
No DAW, no grid lines, just the truth of the metronome and your ear.
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You didn't. You mentioned James Chirillo and posted the clip where he discusses his quarter note.
Originally Posted by AllanAllen
I was agreeing with that clip, especially since I had the opportunity to study with James. Previously in the thread, there was discussion about using a DAW. Supersoul sounded like he didn't agree with that practice, and I agreed.
Sorry for the confusion.
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I don't think anybody is talking about using a metronome or click on stage, except in jest. But if you want to learn how to keep time and not speed up or slow down over the course of a piece, practicing with a metronome is going to help. What else are you going to do? Use a stop watch? Likewise, the gaps between a metronome, whether it's clicking every beat or every 4th beat, help you learn how to subdivide the time yourself. Christian suggested using a DAW to double-check your time feel, not as a primary means of learning it. You 'feel' like you're playing in time, but how do you know your feel is correct? Checking in the DAW is one way to do that. Originally Posted by PickingMyEars
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What folks? Me? Originally Posted by PickingMyEars
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Clicks on every beat is really anoying and not fun, unless you're practicing funk 16ths rhythm. For swing nooo, it's degrading!
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Well I would characterise that as over-quantified haha. And will probably bring some JGO members out in a fit of vapours, but I understand what you mean in spirit. Originally Posted by CliffR
Hey Christian, I know how you hate to be overly-analytical about this stuff
but I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. Can you clarify. Assuming we're talking about an 8th note line, and we have a time-line going between 1 and 2 between the first two beats, then with a standard triplet swing I guess the first note is on 1.0, the off-beat on 1.67, and the next on 2.0. What are you suggesting instead? That the notes on 1 and 2 should be delayed a little, so, eg, we have 1.1, 1.67, and 2.2? Where the fractional bit is a question of 'feel'. Is that what you mean? How would you characterise Charlie Parkers time feel like this, on his slower tunes?
Basically, yes.
The way Peter Bernstein for instance would describe this is 'straight and late'. The secret of making this right is consistently feeling the upbeats.
The triplet will do for this. It's possible to sing triplets at around 140, so do that, and then drop the second triplet. Then just sing the third triplet.
You can also experiment with setting the metronome click to the and of 1 and 3, or 2 and 4. Or just the and of 4. The last one I do a lot. It's tough at first, but it will help you gain rhythmic independence. You will fall over at first. This is normal.
Then, when you feel you've got it - it should feel relaxed and easy eventually - practice playing nice even eight notes. Don't force them to be all the same, but if you do 'horn slurring' like most jazz guitarists, the feel will tend to straighten out anyway. Think about each note having its own space, especially the ones on the 'ands.'
As I understand it, feeling the space between the beats in this way is the way to find the pocket.
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I mean as to where to set your metronome, I'd say it's good to get used to everything.
If you are recording a session to a click it might be on every beat or in two, 1 and 3. I had to do this for a gypsy jazz library music session, and get it on the grid. And they are literally looking at a DAW.
Not the sort of thing you'd do for fun, but quite normal for a professional engagement of that type.
OTOH, if you are playing a gig, I do think it's quite good to have that type of awareness for live playing, and jazz especially is a more organic thing. If you had to criticise good click players, they tend to 'lean' on the time which means they can drag or be a bit pedestrian (because you can in that setting) while without a click you need to establish the rhythm more, in negotiation with the other players, create excitement and energy. It's a slightly different skill, but related. The perfect thing for that type of session work is when you can do both at the same time. Think of any of the great session cats who lay it down but are totally on the click.
I come more from the live thing than the studio thing. As a swing rhythm guitarist, I was usually encouraged by bandleaders to push and drive the music. But then others want you to play right on the bean (esp in the studio). Neither is wrong or right. Different people want different things. You should learn how to do those things.
You need to be listening to the drummer in any case.
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Thanks maestro! Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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That's interesting and makes sense; even gypsy jazz has to be on a click at this point, at least if it's used in a production context. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
The DAW can be really useful as a tool for learning. You can also analyze famous recordings by looking at the waveforms, especially if instruments are panned widely, and see that different instruments aren't always exactly together.
Another thing that's kinda interesting about analyzing old recordings is to see how the tempos fluctuate. They will speed up a couple BPMs by the end. Back in the day it didn't matter and no one noticed. The advent of drum machines and click tracks made people more aware and then it became a "bad" thing. It's just being human, though.
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Also, if you record seriously, it could be advantageous to practice getting your playing to line up with the DAW's grid/metronome.
For extra money, if you're thinking of joining a Pro "Cover Band" to play "Pop/Rock". Nowadays, many Pro "Cover Bands" play-a-long to a "Click track". They are usually "4 clicks to the bar" click tracks, but can get very sophisticated.
Below: U2 using a live click track, (Sorry, it includes Rock and terrible singing too, but it's a sophisticated "Click Track" being used live.)
Sorry, but I'm a "Four to the Bar" with the metronome set to "4 Clicks" kind of Guy.
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For those of us who play jam sessions and small gigs, who aren't recording for jazz instruction courses or playing in cover bands with the Edge--why use a DAW to work on time? I'm finally getting my head out of the book/phone when I play. Learning to play with a DAW doesn't help when I don't have a DAW running--in the moment--when I play.
I was told that my level of ear training was a waste of time, and that I was wasting my time obsessing over rhythm. Time on the instrument is priority number one--developing skills that you can access out of your own independent know-how in any performance situation. Agreed. That's why I think obsessing over where you are on a DAW is a waste of time--all pun intended.
If we aren't in cover bands or recording in the studio--the best piece of technology is conveniently located on the sides of our head. Why add another loop to go through? How is that visual going to help me when I play away from the DAW? Pure muscle memory? I've done ear training for almost two decades, aural retention down to the millisecond of note placement doesn't sound feasible as well. So practicing with a DAW that way and hoping for magic in a performance--with the variable of everyone else's grooving human time doesn't sound logical as well. Record and use your ears. If I can't hear it, I ask my teacher--if he's not available, I ask another friend musician.
Plus, digital precision isn't the point. If I want to sound like Wes Montgomery or Dexter, I have to imitate their time until I can't hear the difference. If an audience can't hear with the exactitude of a computer, why should I trust a computer when I perform for others? Understanding the nuance of rhythm can get me closer to how I want to sound than a DAW.Last edited by PickingMyEars; 04-30-2026 at 07:09 PM.
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I’m also in front of a computer all day for work. The last thing I want is more computer after work. I’ll pay someone else to run a DAW when it’s time to record and ending a few BPM away is fine. A slurred note is fine, a pitchy vocal is fine. These things make us human.
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Strange that nobody took notice of Metheny's 0.5 1.5 2.5 3.5 example on the first page... and playing with a swing feel omg. Originally Posted by GuyBoden
Add that to your list too
edi: oh, i see my mistake now. it still is 2&4 there.
But anyway, ticks on 1/2, 1 1/2, 2 1/2, 3 1/2 is a great way to test how solid your 1 2 3 4 are.
edit2: jeez, i think like computer. always from 0 instead from 1. thats 1.5, 2.5, 3.5, 4.5 or 1 1/2, 2 1/2, 3 1/2, 4 1/2. or hm..
um.. “on the offbeats” “on the ‘ands’ between the beats” “on the upbeats”Last edited by emanresu; 05-01-2026 at 01:49 AM.
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I would have said the exact same thing about ten years ago in the same strident way. If you are out playing standards and other jazz gigs with the best drummers and bass players in the world and that is your thing, I would tend to agree. And I don’t think it’s wrong, per se. Originally Posted by PickingMyEars
But the world is kind of different for most of us.
The danger of taking advice from top New York straight ahead players are the same reasons it’s great to study with them - they are top New York straight ahead players. That’s a lot of context.
There are professional reasons why I have started to take metronomic grid time much more seriously over the past few years. It’s the paradigm for recording now, like it or not. but also, I do think it’s relevant to other areas. Really it’s about learning to synchronise. Synchronisation is a basic skill, and not everyone synchronises exactly when they think they do. I know I didn’t.
You can also judge that from recording yourself with a click etc. Do you hear flams? Drummers work on this within their own playing. Is the kick drum happening at the same time as the cymbal? etc etc. And once synchronicity is learned you can also desynchronise things as well.
But this is just an objective aspect of music, and it is very much the sort of thing you can see on a DAW timeline as well.Last edited by Christian Miller; 05-01-2026 at 04:40 AM.
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Also I bet those NY players can all absolutely nail it with a click.
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yeah, most of them sound like they do... Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Yes, and even most pub Blues/Pop/Rock bands have better time than your average Hobby Jazz guitarist (IMHO), but is this only because Blues/Pop/Rock music is simpler to play? Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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I did that James Chirillo exercise last night… not great.
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I don't practice with a DAW -- don't think I'd enjoy it much if I did. Originally Posted by PickingMyEars
But is anyone suggesting practicing only that?
Christian's response here is pretty on point. I think there is a tendency for people (I know this was the case with myself) to solve a problem they had, then assume not only that everyone else has the same problem, but that the solution that worked for them will also work for everyone else. Different things work for different people.
I practice with a metronome ALL THE TIME and a lot of people tell me that'll make my time stale and inhuman. Don't think it has so far, but I may be wrong. I tend to work on my time feel by clapping out rhythms while I walk around. Other people sit at a desk all day and that one wouldn't really work.
And a question -- how is your grooving human time these days?
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Used to be better when I was going to more sessions and doing more local gigs.
Pushing myself to get back out there and play music. Pushing myself to get back out there in general...
Sometimes I feel like I have to post the same comment multiple times because few take the time to read them, even if they are short. Wastes my practice time and takes away from thread that brought me back to the forum, for better or worse.
A DAW is a great tool for practicing digital precision. If you are playing against a click track, perfect. Studio gigs where you are playing someone else's music. Maybe a pit band in certain circumstances. Got it.
I was a little peeved when Barry Greene posted his time feel video and included a DAW. He has an amazing time feel. Took a lesson with him, and his time feel was just the same. He might have made small adjustments with his time feel, but I bet he learned how to groove without a computer. I would even go as far as to say he learned how to groove without the metronome alone.
Let's go back to what I said, "For those of us who play jam sessions and small gigs, who aren't recording for jazz instruction courses or playing in cover bands with the Edge--why use a DAW to work on time?"
There's a lot of ways that us students of music can work on our time. The best way is to play as much as possible with the best musicians we can. Go back to the records. Play with them. Then use rhythm to work on rhythm. I didn't get into polyrhythm because I wanted to play complex rhythmic gymnastics. Polyrhythm can help dial in your time feel with your internal clock. 6:4 and 3:4 weren't random polyrhythms I pulled out of a hat. Record yourself with a basic recording device. Record yourself with your phone. Record yourself. Record yourself. Record yourself.
Remembering that Dexter played 1.5 milliseconds behind the beat... Once again, how are you going to use that on the bandstand--at a local jam session or gig? How are you going to use that at Smalls? I grew up in New York, and spent my late teens and 20s living in NYC. None of the teachers I studied with advocated using a DAW. None of my friends either. The old hats that always got gigs after the jams, did they sit in front of a DAW to practice their time?
If I am learning how to play in the pocket and groove with other musicians on the bandstand, the DAW won't help me. If I am working on my swing feel, the DAW won't help me. For those of us working on our feel, suggested a DAW as the elixir of good time feel is bad pedagogy. Hate to say it, but that sounds like a bigger waste of time than all the ear training I used to talk about here on the forum.
Getting away from 4 clicks on the metronome. Getting away from 2 clicks. Even 1 click. How can I develop an internal sense of time to apply on the bandstand if I never practice keeping time for myself--away from all the tools? Do that first, instead of adding more tools to rely on when you sit down to practice. In education speak, these are scaffolds. As someone who taught general and special education, I knew that if my students were always relying on my scaffolds--I wasn't teaching them right. I wasn't fading the scaffold to teach independence. I know for myself that I can't access what I practice in the shed ON STAGE if I don't ween myself off all the tools first. No chart, no metronome, no backing track. I have to generate the music myself, no matter how good or bad it sounds.
Sure, professionals use a DAW to fine tune their time--but they already had good time to begin with, away from the computer
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I actually did read your post, and it feels like you're arguing against something no one is suggesting. Originally Posted by PickingMyEars
People said DAW can be helpful. I wouldn't know. But no one suggested that it is a substitute for playing with people, with recordings, or by yourself.
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A few thoughts Originally Posted by GuyBoden
1) They've heard what they are playing a 1,000,000 times. Hearing what you are going to play is important. If you don't hear what you are going to play, it is unlikely to be rhythmically compelling.
2) Blues/rock feel is a bit different to jazz feel for the lead stuff. You can be more on top and it's cool. It takes work for most guitarists to learn to play in the pocket.
3) They don't think they are too cool to play licks
4) Hobby jazz guitarists are obsessed with improvising. Pub bands at least learn blinking songs.
5) Rhythm guitar
6) Strumming is big and clever
7) Hobby jazz guitarist are finking about fings all the time cos some absolute mungbean got them to overthink pitch choices on chords. Finking is poison in musical performance.
8) Pub blues guitarists, if they fink at all, are mostly finking about their new pedal. This is much better.
I'll add anything else as I think of it.
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I always have my young 'uns (and not so young) go Originally Posted by Christian Miller
"in your ear" -- so can you hear the rhythm you're about to play
"on your body or in your voice" -- can you sing it or clap it or tap it ... with rhythm, I think on your body is better and with feet thumping out the pulse is maybe best.
then "on your instrument."
Incredible how many problems that little process fixes.
Why are you the way that you are?7) Hobby jazz guitarist are finking about fings all the time cos some absolute mungbean got them to overthink pitch choices on chords. Finking is poison in musical performance.
8) Pub blues guitarist if they fink at all, are mostly finking about their new pedal. This is much better.
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