Metronome exercises. Can you play good time using 4 beats to the bar?

[Christian Miller]

Attachment 131849
For best results, attach electrode to drummer?.

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[Christian Miller]

i am sorry. i'm usually too blunt for my own good and other's comfort.

it is my belief that mainstream jazz (and i think you love pre-war jazz) is folk music. a good place for an unschooled lover of the music, regardless how tight he is on the milliseconds. i have wasted many hours chasing ghosts.

Idk, I just wanted to know if I could actually play quarters on the click when I thought I was. Using a DAW to confirm if I was in fact doing that seemed like a good way to check.

Guess what? I was embarrassingly bad. I worked on it. I got better at it.

I’ve already received emails telling me I’m wrong or smth.

I mean tbf what I learned is I can actually hear it. Otoh I couldn’t hear anything when I was starting out. I think knowing what to listen for helps. A visual reference can help.

You know if my ability to synchronise accurately with a dumb old DAW is the difference between me getting a repeat call for paid gig or not, that’s what I’m going with. We live in 2026, clicks and DAWs are a fact of life if not ubiquitous.

I don’t think that’s what is going on with Elvin Jones or whatever. As I said click isn’t the be and end all. FFS some people need to learn to read. (Not you djg.)

I do also think learning to synchronise with things is a basic rhythm skill. I’ve said that multiple times. You don’t need to use a DAW to do that. But I found it good to check.

I think being able to quantify the effects of practice is good for mental health.

10 years ago I’d have argued the toss over it. I have come to the conclusion that it’s not worth being ideological over this stuff. There’s many ways to work on stuff. I’ve done all sorts of things.

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[Christian Miller]

Because you’ve been walking with rock solid time for several decades. Relatively speaking, the guitar thing is new.

But it may make you gravitate to one specific tempo.


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[Christian Miller]

Haven’t gotten there yet. But, I’m ready to back burner Moose the Mooch.

Which do you think I should hit next? Anthropology or Confirmation

Moose the mooche is in 3-2 clave

Most of the bird things are in 2-3 tho

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[pamosmusic]

But it may make you gravitate to one specific tempo.


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But it’s a really good one.

[GuyBoden]

Isn't that the point of online discourse? To have emotionally driven one sided debates.

Mostly, it's about talking/typing to yourself and finding posts that validate your opinion. I know it is for me.

[AllanAllen]

Moose the mooche is in 3-2 clave

Most of the bird things are in 2-3 tho

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Is that why Moose feels so awkward?

[pamosmusic]

Is that why Moose feels so awkward?

I think Moose just feels awkward because it’s really hard to play haha

[marcwhy]

Check out the Humanome from Wayne Krantz - it's fun!

[AllanAllen]

So let me get this straight. Instead of learning how to have solid time, we should be accommodating people with shitty time.

I’m done, this is idiotic.

[rpjazzguitar]

Some thoughts. Some great players counsel against the use of the metronome. Some counsel the opposite. Some who recommend it will admit, in an unguarded moment, that they don't actually use it. Some definitely do.

One musician I know recommends, strongly, recording himself and playing it back at a fraction of the speed to identify every deviation from mathematical time. But, it seems to me that the result, if he achieves perfection, is that his time will be mechanical and therefore might not feel good.

Which brings me to the distinction between time and time feel. None of the greats at time feel sound mechanical. I'm guessing, without conducting the experiments, that they don't match up with the click -- they're better than that.

I'm not even sure that being able to match a metronome perfectly is really all that helpful. Some say it is. Others disregard it.

My experience of working on improving time and time feel is this. For a while I felt like my time completely sucked. Then I started playing with better players and my time miraculously improved. When I play with pros, I don't seem to have a time problem. I believe that I still have a time-feel problem (or at least, it should be improved) and I don't have the impression that the metronome is going to help much with that. Maybe drum tracks would be better.

When my actual time starts to suck that's almost always because I can't play the song well enough. That is, something like dragging because I can't execute the lines at the current tempo. Or, I'm not reading the hits correctly. One way to get sloppy is to try to play something you can't play and let your time drag.

So, my conclusions are: I don't know if a metronome will help a particular player. Play with a quality rhythm section. Make sure you can play the tune before you start thinking of it as a time problem.

As far as time-feel goes, as soon as I figure that out, I'll post the solution.

[sgcim]

I had a rude surprise a few years ago to find that I had problems when I tried to practice improvising at faster tempos with my Boss DB--90 set at four to the bar instead of one and three.

Four to the bar simulates what is actually happening when you're taking a solo with a rhythm section at a session or on a gig. The bass is usually playing four to the bar unless it's playing pedal points.
When I was only using the DB-90 on one and three, I found I was 'cheating' to some extent, and it was reflected in how I was playing with a real rhythm section.
Playing on two and four was okay up to a certain point, but at faster tempos, you sound like you're playing polkas, according to one heavy sax player I used to play with, whose ability to burn was beyond reproach.

I use four to a bar on tunes like Confirmation, Move, Crazeology etc... med. fast tunes.
If you really want to quit playing the guitar, try playing exercises in unison with Musescore set on classical guitar at fast tempos. You'll feel like you're playing with a John Williams robot and give up after a while.

[emanresu]

When I was young and crazy (still am) I put four on the bar but on offbeats. Turned tempo up gradually over weeks.
Just for scale exercises. I remember getting to 380bpm while still treating them as offbeats. It was very limited what
was possible to play. Kinda "cheaty".

Atm, I need to learn a tricky tune at 170bpm. Using the same method now - ticks at offbeats. To get the syncopation snappy.
This way, the syncopes are easy... but nailing the 1 2 3 4 was (and still is after a few weeks) hard but improving. But the benefit is obvious.
Of course, it is a straight tune. Haven't really done that with swing.

[Strat-itis]

I agree with the OP. The goal is to solidify playing in time, so focus on that however easy you make it for yourself. Hell I'll set a backing track with a click and the changes displayed on my tv. Bonus is exercises to challenge yourself.

[supersoul]

So let me get this straight. Instead of learning how to have solid time, we should be accommodating people with shitty time.

I’m done, this is idiotic.

I think you're getting at something that hasn't quite been mentioned in this thread, which is the tendency of people to speed up gradually. Practicing with a metronome keeps you in check when while practicing a tune, and teaches you to be conscious of speeding up.

It's a natural tendency, for the tempo to go up as the intensity goes up, but it's not a good thing. The metronome trains you to be relaxed and stay in tempo.

Or, relatedly, if a tune has a harder section, I notice that I might slow down a bit to get it right. But the metronome is like, "oh no you don't" and makes me keep my place in the form. Then I can go back and work on that particular section.

I mean, this is just a way that the metronome has helped me have better rhythm.

[joe2758]

I think you're getting at something that hasn't quite been mentioned in this thread, which is the tendency of people to speed up gradually. Practicing with a metronome keeps you in check when while practicing a tune, and teaches you to be conscious of speeding up.

Ah the old RIngo Starr effect

[supersoul]

Ah the old RIngo Starr effect

In the sense that Ringo was solid and kept everyone else in tempo?

(I'm not sure what you mean)

[joe2758]

In the sense that Ringo was solid and kept everyone else in tempo?

(I'm not sure what you mean)

Yeah that's what I meant. I guess it could have been interpreted as the opposite.

[pamosmusic]

I don’t think rushing is a bad thing as long as the integrity of the music is intact. Like some songs don’t sound good sped up … a walking ballad, say, maybe shouldn’t be faster. And obviously when you can’t play it after the rush.

[rpjazzguitar]

Some players I know absolutely hate it if the song doesn't stay at exactly the same tempo throughout.

But, some classic jazz recordings vary by 10% or so (per a friend with a tap tempo metronome).

I'm not that bothered by tempo creep if the groove is good.

[James W]

I greatly enjoy Herbie Hancock's Chameleon, which speeds up almost throughout I think.

[Hep To The Jive]

Some players I know absolutely hate it if the song doesn't stay at exactly the same tempo throughout.

But, some classic jazz recordings vary by 10% or so (per a friend with a tap tempo metronome).

I'm not that bothered by tempo creep if the groove is good.

Well, if there's a tempo creep or drag the groove can't be that good, it's like against the defenition of what groove is. Of course there are exceptions, in many funk recordings where tempo manipulated with purpose. But I am bothered by some classic jazz recording with the tempo creep. Max Roach/Cliffor Brown is one, I can't listen to it, It's like antithesis of groove.

[Christian Miller]

I greatly enjoy Herbie Hancock's Chameleon, which speeds up almost throughout I think.

Yeah. There’s loads of great jazz records that speed and slow down.


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[rpjazzguitar]

Well, if there's a tempo creep or drag the groove can't be that good, it's like against the defenition of what groove is. Of course there are exceptions, in many funk recordings where tempo manipulated with purpose. But I am bothered by some classic jazz recording with the tempo creep. Max Roach/Cliffor Brown is one, I can't listen to it, It's like antithesis of groove.

There you have it. Different views. Hep is far from the only musician I've heard voice that sentiment.

My thought is that songs may have some intentional variation in intensity. That can be expressed with volume, more-or-less space, harmonic density, whatever. I think tempo can be part of that, but that's just my view. I don't think you need to play to a click track, or have a human click-equivalent to have a song groove. OTOH, if it feels like the song is dragging or rushing, that's too much.

[Hep To The Jive]

There you have it. Different views. Hep is far from the only musician I've heard voice that sentiment.

My thought is that songs may have some intentional variation in intensity. That can be expressed with volume, more-or-less space, harmonic density, whatever. I think tempo can be part of that, but that's just my view. I don't think you need to play to a click track, or have a human click-equivalent to have a song groove. OTOH, if it feels like the song is dragging or rushing, that's too much.

Intensity levels thorugh dynamics yes! But I'm not sure the tempo changes qualified as dynamics, not unless it's intentional and part of the arrangment? Anyhow, a little tempo creep up is natural in swing, but a LITTLE. What I'm talking about when it's just so obvious it feels off... for me it does, and you're right everyone feels different. Tbh I didn't encounter too many cases like that on recordings, it's basically just the one I mentioned. Although it's considered a classic, so I guess most won't find it unlistenbale lol.