Re: the "el lame'o" guitarists who ain't got no soul

[Christian Miller]

As far as other versions go, I think I like this. He's made it quite melodic.

wrong thread?

[ragman1]

Otoh Wes was directly influenced by Django.

Yes, I know Wes was.

[ragman1]

wrong thread?

Oops, completely wrong thread! Thank you. It's gone now.

[Christian Miller]

Yes, I know Wes was.

If only there was some way we could verify this conjecture about a living musician, possibly using some sort of automatic research apparatus, doubtless filling several good sized university buildings, powered by steam engine and perhaps interrogable via some sort of punched card arrangement, that could file through a good portion of human knowledge and perchance deliver its findings via pneumatic tube.

However, as we live in the year of our lord eighteen hundred and ninety-four, this indeed constitutes Jules Verne fantasy and I remain unwilling and unable to contract the services of suitable archivist. I await your next telegram, and remain, sir, your obedient servant.

[lawson-stone]

I do feel there’s a lot of Django, western swing almost, in George’s playing.

I don't like going with the "who's better" route, Wes has always inspired me... but frankly, hundreds of listenings later, every time I hear Benson play "Billie's Bounce" I pretty much have to lie down. It slays me. If I'm jogging, I often stumble or fall. Something about his utter domination of that tune just blows my brains out. If I had 1% of the sense of time and phrasing he has on that track, I'd never complain about my own poor playing again.

[ragman1]

If only there was some way we could verify this conjecture about a living musician.

Ask him?

[TAA]

I’m with Lawson with “I don't like going with the "who's better" route” but it’s there that it stops.

Our personal preferences have nothing to do with “judging” who is better. We cannot accurately define “better” that EVERYONE would agree with. I’ve heard George’s playing and went back just now and re-listened to his Billie’s Bounce. No doubt, it’s good. Some of it sounds like other tunes that he’s done. That’s George’s “style”. That’s how he gets out of his head what the listener hears.

I have one of his CD’s, four of Wes’s CD’s and one of Johnny Smith’s CD’s in my car. For long trips I bounce back and forth between them. But have to admit that I have (25) of Wes’s albums, (8) of Smith’s and none of George’s. For me, Wes’s work connects with me more than the other two. That’s just me. Maybe I’m biased, I met Wes in April 1966.

Soul? That’s an expression that has been around as long I’ve been listening to music. It has nothing to do with religion or a musical past. It has to do with how and what you are playing and how you exude that to the listener. Simply, do you connect with feeling, warmth, sensitivity and confidence with your audience? You either do or you don’t. And if you do, the listener reacts by saying “he/she has soul”.

FWIW

Tom

[Christian Miller]

Ask him?

well tbf he might digress into a ten minute anecdote about how terrible Herbie’s driving is or something.

Alternatively, you could look on the internet of course and see he mentions Django as an influence in interviews.

[ragman1]

I already have. He mentions Django now and then, usually praising his technique, ability to swing, and all that, and only then as one of a number of players he admires.

I'm happy that, although Benson liked him, he didn't try to emulate his style or cover his tunes. You might have picked up on a few twiddles or something but that's not enough for me. I don't hear Gypsy jazz in his playing.

[Christian Miller]

I already have. He mentions Django now and then, usually praising his technique, ability to swing, and all that, and only then as one of a number of players he admires.

I'm happy that, although Benson liked him, he didn't try to emulate his style or cover his tunes. You might have picked up on a few twiddles or something but that's not enough for me. I don't hear Gypsy jazz in his playing.

Well I do. Want a fight?

[djg]

I hear it especially on cadenzas and free time things.

Part of it might be his technique which is similar.

Manouche jazz players are generally really into George as well….

yes, they are. agreed on the cadenzas (i again refer to the shadow of your smile clip). also his low-key vibrato which he copped,you guessed it, from grant green. i also think the django influence in benson was actually filtered through hank garland.

here's one for scim, regarding licks, etc: wes is a good example of a player using a *ton* of pre-rehearsed material. snidero could've used him as an example

for proof check out the carol decamp (sp?) recordings which basically got re-recorded as incredible jazz guitar.

[djg]

here#s joey defrancesco playing bensons famous solo right in his face.

can you feel the love beween these two? no soul, huh?

[sgcim]

I don’t get in what sense that George Benson “was a better guitar player” than Wes.

Technically only.
I mean Wes played with only his thumb. It was amazing that he was able to cut the fast tempos that he so superbly did.
Wes himself said he admired the playing of guitarists like Johnny Smith, Segovia, etc...
But as a jazz guitarist, IMHO, Wes was and is still unsurpassed.
That's what he was all about. The guy has over 25 JAZZ albums.Benson has made a few jazz albums.
Every album I've bought of Benson's weren't even jazz albums- Giblet Gravy, Beyond the Blue Horizon, Benson and Farrell.etc...

The album with Joe Farrell was so bad, I couldn't believe it. He was recording with one of the best sax players in jazz, and what did they play?
Some horrible New Age crap that was just pitiful.
Benson never even heard of Charlie Parker until he was already a pro, and a musician friend of his suggested he listen to him.
Then Benson said in his autobiography at the very end, that Charlie Parker KILLED Jazz. Then he had the nerve to say that HE was the only one keeping jazz alive.
Ask any rock guitar player who their fave jazz guitar player is, and they'll say George Benson most of the time. That's because Benson is playing rock licks, and playing fast, and bending strings like rock players do, so they can relate to him. Ask them if they know any other jazz guitar players
and they'll say no. Ask them if they listen to jazz, and other than Miles Davis' fusion albums, they'll say no.
I've been reading the hornet's nest of rock players, TGP,for years now, trying to educate the rockers about other jazz players, but it's tough sledding.

I'd be willing to bet that Benson was the 'gateway drug' for jazz for most of the players here, other than people like Wintermoon, John Galich and some of the European cats like Gitman, who knew about other jazz players BEFORE they heard Benson.

I'll close by saying that IMHO, Benson is a great guitar player, who can outfunk any jazz player around, but not a great JAZZ guitar player, because rhythmically, idea-wise, continuity of his lines (compared to Wes, and the example I posted of Kenny Burrell's version of The Shadow of Your Smile compared to Benson's version) and Swing (his pentatonic lines that 'bubble out' like a great Country player, but are something a jazz player would not play, because they don't swing).

I find it hard to believe that at a JAZZ guitar forum, so many people think Benson is a better JAZZ guitar player than Wes. Try to sing a JAZZ guitar line by Benson, then try to sing a jazz guitar line by Wes...If that doesn't prove who improvised more musically meaningful JAZZ lines, nothing does.

[sgcim]

that was pat's dad.

with regard to quotes this is not your week

Well, he probably got it from his son...

[sgcim]

here#s joey defrancesco playing bensons famous solo right in his face.

can you feel the love beween these two? no soul, huh?

Yeah, Benson plays with soul, but it's not JAZZ soul, it's funk and R&B soul.
There are thousands of blues players that play with soul, but that doesn't mean that they can play jazz.
I was just using the term soul to compare the solos on Round Midnight between Wes and Benson.
Benson plays with SOUL!
If you compare the solos of Eshete and Benson's it;s like comparing the solos of a great jazz player, and a great bloes player. Eshete's solos are filled with great lines, while Benson's solo is a bunch of pentatonic blues licks, and fast lines that are just BS. And Joey blows them both away!

[djg]

Well, he probably got it from his son...

i'll grant you a maybe, because pat was wiping the floor with benson on those records with willis jackson. but benson had class enough to admit it.

and you got a blind spot there, bro. he's not my favourite guitarist either but you're basically dissing a whole school of players. like richie hart (who'd rip you a new one for your comments) and rodney jones, just to name two of at least 20 i could come up with, that are fantastic players in the "benson school". the loss is all yours.

[djg]

Yeah, Benson plays with soul, but it's not JAZZ soul

is that your problem? really? the *wrong* kind of soul? that#s some bone-fried shit to say

[wintermoon]

Technically only.
I mean Wes played with only his thumb. It was amazing that he was able to cut the fast tempos that he so superbly did.
Wes himself said he admired the playing of guitarists like Johnny Smith, Segovia, etc...
But as a jazz guitarist, IMHO, Wes was and is still unsurpassed.
That's what he was all about. The guy has over 25 JAZZ albums.Benson has made a few jazz albums.
Every album I've bought of Benson's weren't even jazz albums- Giblet Gravy, Beyond the Blue Horizon, Benson and Farrell.etc...

The album with Joe Farrell was so bad, I couldn't believe it. He was recording with one of the best sax players in jazz, and what did they play?
Some horrible New Age crap that was just pitiful.
Benson never even heard of Charlie Parker until he was already a pro, and a musician friend of his suggested he listen to him.
Then Benson said in his autobiography at the very end, that Charlie Parker KILLED Jazz. Then he had the nerve to say that HE was the only one keeping jazz alive.
Ask any rock guitar player who their fave jazz guitar player is, and they'll say George Benson most of the time. That's because Benson is playing rock licks, and playing fast, and bending strings like rock players do, so they can relate to him. Ask them if they know any other jazz guitar players
and they'll say no. Ask them if they listen to jazz, and other than Miles Davis' fusion albums, they'll say no.
I've been reading the hornet's nest of rock players, TGP,for years now, trying to educate the rockers about other jazz players, but it's tough sledding.

I'd be willing to bet that Benson was the 'gateway drug' for jazz for most of the players here, other than people like Wintermoon, John Galich and some of the European cats like Gitman, who knew about other jazz players BEFORE they heard Benson.

I'll close by saying that IMHO, Benson is a great guitar player, who can outfunk any jazz player around, but not a great JAZZ guitar player, because rhythmically, idea-wise, continuity of his lines (compared to Wes, and the example I posted of Kenny Burrell's version of The Shadow of Your Smile compared to Benson's version) and Swing (his pentatonic lines that 'bubble out' like a great Country player, but are something a jazz player would not play, because they don't swing).

I find it hard to believe that at a JAZZ guitar forum, so many people think Benson is a better JAZZ guitar player than Wes. Try to sing a JAZZ guitar line by Benson, then try to sing a jazz guitar line by Wes...If that doesn't prove who improvised more musically meaningful JAZZ lines, nothing does.

the line about Benson being the gateway drug is so true. when I was playing in the hood all those years people would come up to me and say "George Benson!" because that was about the only "jazz guitarist" they knew. But when I played an octave line some of the old heads would shout "Wes Montgomery!" that's how identified he was from his octave playing
Cannonball Adderly's cousin, a vibes player used to call me 'The White Wes' [bless him but he mustn't have heard enough Wes to know any better even though 'Ball discovered Wes]

[sgcim]

i'll grant you a maybe, because pat was wiping the floor with benson on those records with willis jackson. but benson had class enough to admit it.

and you got a blind spot there, bro. he's not my favourite guitarist either but you're basically dissing a whole school of players. like richie hart (who'd rip you a new one for your comments) and rodney jones, just to name two of at least 20 i could come up with, that are fantastic players in the "benson school". the loss is all yours.

I gladly accept that loss. Again, they're great guitarists, but I don't like Hart or Rodney. I heard someone play a Rodney Jones record at a Tower record store, and had no idea who the guitarist was.
He had unbelievable technique, I could never play that fast in a billion years, but it was all funk rythmically.
I asked the guy at Tower who the guitar player was, and he said "Rodney Jones".
I was convinced that RJ was the greatest funk player on the planet.
Since you play in an organ trio, you've got to play funk, and that doesn't mean anything, because I love funk.
But Wintermoon also plays in an organ trio, and he knows the difference between funk and jazz.
As you said, "fck jazz". There's a lot of funk that's more exciting and filled with energy than jazz, but funk is not jazz.

[sgcim]

is that your problem? really? the *wrong* kind of soul? that#s some bone-fried shit to say

It's the style of music I was talking about. And Larry practically admitted that he was wrong about the "Bone-fried quote of Ziefff's, when I wrote out the paragraph verbatim from the Twardzik book. He just said the topic has been exhausted!"

[djg]

It's the style of music I was talking about. And Larry practically admitted that he was wrong about the "Bone-fried quote of Ziefff's, when I wrote out the paragraph verbatim from the Twardzik book. He just said the topic has been exhausted!"

i feel the same about this topic so you'll probably count that as a w, too

[sgcim]

i feel the same about this topic so you'll probably count that as a w, too

Like James said, it all comes down to opinion as far as Benson and his acolytes are concerned. There's no winners, just bone-fried beboppers..

[TAA]

The expression “wipe the floor” needs two comments….

Back when I was active, my late teens and into my 20’s, the phrase used was…”Joe can cut Bill”. Proclaiming that one player was significantly “better” than another player.

It would be a good thing if that attitude and phrasing, old or current, could be avoided on our forum.

Back to the concept of soul…
In my view, listening to AND watching someone perform, it must be remembered that we listen with our ears and not our eyes. Painful faces, over emotional grimacing, constant movement, dancing, wiggling and jiggling, etc. are not markers of soul. But sometimes a listener gets fooled into believing that those machinations reveal soul. In the few videos that I’ve seen of Wes Montgomery, he doesn’t display that kind of behavior. And when I saw him in person at a small concert, in April 1966, he didn’t get physical, as we see others do today. You listened to him and departed afterwards, being thankful that had the opportunity to HEAR him and Wynton Kelly’s trio play, allowing you to focus on the sound not the visual.

But like everything else…what we like and don’t like and our definition of soul are all different.

Tom

[Christian Miller]

I think we got ourselves into trouble by parcelling jazz into a neat little club separate from R&B and Soul. I see it all as a glorious continuum.

[ragman1]

Well I do. Want a fight?

Certainly. Picks at dawn?

I completely accept that you hear Benson playing Gypsy jazz licks. No question. If you say you do, you do, honestly.

But there are people who hear all sorts of things, aliens, dead people, fairy folk, Radio Caroline... so I understand