Re: the "el lame'o" guitarists who ain't got no soul

[Jonah]

Well there are degrees to things, like when guys rate women on a scale of 1 to 10, if she gets a 10, she's super pretty, if she gets a 2, then hopefully she has a great personality . If she's a 12, then she's exceptionally pretty even amongst the beautiful.

I do not rate things or people in degrees. Even more when I am forced to do it I feel very awkward because I do not find this approach appropriate and relevant.
If one does this it is only his own way of organizing his world. But not mine. Though I admit that in some cases it can be helpful but in no way 'there are degrees to things' as something objective. It is our choice if we put things in that system or not.

[Litterick]

Montgomery listened to some records, judged who was playing the guitar in each one and gave each a score. A guitarist talked about his peers. That is all. This event has nothing to with best-ever lists or how men rate women.

[James Haze]

Completely agree. Along with judgements about talent, authenticity and personal taste. Listening, like learning, is a continuum of exposure, attention and effort. Stop where you want along the way, but don’t assume that that’s all there is, or that your understanding is somehow superior to others. Humility is helpful in most human endeavors and relationships, something that is often missing in this and other forums. I do appreciate it when I see it here, though.

On the other hand, if someone reads my post who has a good positive attitude, what I wrote could really benefit them, and help them improve their playing. That's where I'm coming from with it, because I'm a loving, caring person. That's right, some player with a real positive outlook and attitude will see what I wrote and realize that it is a very important aspect of plying that doesn't get talked about enough, and that by giving it some thoughtful consideration and practice, they can actually improve their playing.

My thread title was admittedly a bit provocative, LOL, but the subject matter will actually really help some thoughtful, intelligent, player, who has a positive, constructive, outlook and attitude actually become a better player, and that would actually make me happy for them.

It's an important aspect of playing that some players need to pay more attention too, that's all I'm saying.

For example: I told the same thing I wrote in my OP to a guy in real time and he took it in a good way to help improve his playing, (which is the way I intended), and actually started working on that aspect of his playing. Now listening to him play a few months later, his playing really has improved from it. He has a really positive attitude and therefore took what I was saying in the right light (not as me thinking I'm better than him, which is not a good way of thinking) and he began spending time each day working on incorporating more soulfulness into his playing, and we both agree that his playing has improved from it. It really has, and in a very good way.

Having a positive attitude really is supremely important. He does, and this advice therefore really helped him improve.

[Kirk Garrett]

Wow, I never knew he had a Blindfold Test in 1967. What Wes says is the stone cold truth, so we got:
Joe Pass- 4 Stars
Les Spann- 4 Stars
Howard Roberts- 4 Stars
Gabor Szabo- 3& 1/2 Stars
Herb Ellis- 3 Stars
Grant Green- 3 Stars
George Benson-- 3 Stars

Notice how I cleverly listed George Benson at the bottom, even though his rating was equal to Ellis' and Green's.
Most of you will claim bias on my part- and you'd be absolutely right!

Notice that he reserved the five 5 star rating for non-guitarists

[ragman1]

Specifically two albums, 'Miles Smiles' and Joe Henderson's 'Mode For Joe', neither of which feature any guitarists.

[lawson-stone]

Well there are degrees to things, like when guys rate women on a scale of 1 to 10, if she gets a 10, she's super pretty, if she gets a 2, then hopefully she has a great personality . If she's a 12, then she's exceptionally pretty even amongst the beautiful.

It's one of those emotional connection things that's difficult to put into words. I'll tell you what, though, that so many people here seem to be having such a difficult time comprehending what having soul in your playing actually means, that in itself is an indication of what I'm referring to.

You very well might be an excellent player. But one thing I can tell you: from your posts, you are one of the most superficial, shallow people I have ever interacted with on this board. Commenting on women as you do just reinforces that you are quite shallow. Sorry, that's just how I see it. My playing is likely "el lame-o" in your judgment, but the one place I have failed to detect any soul at all is... in your comments. Just calling it like I hear it.

[sgcim]

Notice that he reserved the five 5 star rating for non-guitarists

That's because Wes' playing style was formed from the horn and piano players of Indianapolis, after he used CC to learn the basics.

As James said, George Benson was a better guitar player than Wes, but as far as the art of jazz improvisation is concerned, Wes was a far greater improviser than 'Georgie' could ever hope to be.
Wes' attitude towards GB could be interpreted as kind of patronizing, calling him Georgie, and "We'll give him three stars ANYWAY"(my emphasis)..
Rather than describe the reasons why Benson's solo was good, like he did with all the other players, he just said it was "out of sight" very diplomatically. He immediately knew it was Benson.
With 'Big Joe' he gave all the reasons why his solo was so great, and with Herb Ellis, he said it lost it's swing towards the end, etc...

Cats like Gabor Szabo and Les Spann weren't technically accomplished guitar players by any means, but Wes appreciated what they were doing from a purely musical standpoint, because that's how Wes approached the music.
With Howard Roberts, it was the same thing; he went into very intricate detail about what HR was doing musically, rather than just saying he had great chops, which is probably all he could say about someone like Benson.

[James Haze]

Mr, Lawson,

Well I'll tell you one thing I have not done in this thread is to make personal attacks on anyone, Mr Lawson, which, by the way, is supposed to be against the forum rules here, and on any forum that I've ever been on.

When I read your post it actually made me start laughing out loud though, because among the people who really know me, I have often been accused of the exact opposite of that, My male friends have said that I'm "henpecked" and let my girlfriends boss me around. Hey, I just like my woman to be happy.

Wow, you can judge me like that without even really knowing me and knowing what my viewpoints really are, wow? And, by the way, I never said that I do that, I said that guys do that. And since you brought it up, I know women who rate guys like that sometimes, when they are among their girlfriends.

Haven't you heard of the movie "10," co-starring Julie Andrews as a cuckold wife? Have you heard of her? She's a very well known actor and singer. She was even knighted by Queen Elizabeth II, and became a Dame. Here's a quote from the plot synopsis of the movie 10:

"Driving one day, George spots a young woman who he believes is the most beautiful creature he's ever seen - an "eleven" on a scale of ten, tens which he didn't believe existed before her. Beyond the fact that she is probably half his age, a problem with George's infatuation is that she is just off to her own wedding."

In the movie, George follows her to Mexico, where she is having her honeymoon, to try and woo her, and he is also already married to Julie Andrew's character in the movie.

So there is the proof that guys do in fact do just what I said. It's a romantic comedy that was one of the highest grossing films of the year in 1980. It was also nominated for 2 Academy Awards and 5 Golden Globe Awards. Based on all that, I think it's clear that people were generally NOT offended that the protagonist in the film said that the woman was an eleven on a scale of 10. That is also proof that the audiences were not offended by the movie talking about a woman as a 10 or 11. The movie was a huge hit among men and women. It became a really popular "date movie." In fact, a studio wanted to do a remake of it in 2003, but the original director was in his 80s by then, and he didn't want to commit to directing another film.

So yeah, I'm such a callous, shallow individual for stating that guys sometimes talk about a woman being a 7,8,9,10,11 or 12 like that. Hey, they do that, it's true.

Me, I hope you have a beautiful, blessed day, and that you achieve all your goals, in terms of how well you play guitar.

[James Haze]

As James said, George Benson was a better guitar player than Wes, but as far as the art of jazz improvisation is concerned, Wes was a far greater improviser than 'Georgie' could ever hope to be.

Like I've said repeatedly, people have different musical tastes, and everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I think George Benson is actually a better jazz guitarist than Wes, and yes on straight ahead jazz too. Here are clips of Wes and George improvising on the same jazz tune.

That being said, they are both giants of jazz guitar in my book, giants who I look up to and really admire. They are both musical geniuses who set a very high standard for what it means to be a great jazz musician. George is at the top of the list of great jazz guitarists for me, though. I studied his style extensively when I was learning how to play jazz. There are a lot of great guitarists who I admire, and consider to be virtuosos, a lot.

[Kirk Garrett]

Specifically two albums, 'Miles Smiles' and Joe Henderson's 'Mode For Joe', neither of which feature any guitarists.

Right. In every case, Wes was rating recordings. His highest ratings were reserved for recordings that do not feature guitar players. He named the musicians specifically.

Same diff.

[Kirk Garrett]

That's because Wes' playing style was formed from the horn and piano players of Indianapolis, after he used CC to learn the basics.

As James said, George Benson was a better guitar player than Wes, but as far as the art of jazz improvisation is concerned, Wes was a far greater improviser than 'Georgie' could ever hope to be.
Wes' attitude towards GB could be interpreted as kind of patronizing, calling him Georgie, and "We'll give him three stars ANYWAY"(my emphasis)..
Rather than describe the reasons why Benson's solo was good, like he did with all the other players, he just said it was "out of sight" very diplomatically. He immediately knew it was Benson.
With 'Big Joe' he gave all the reasons why his solo was so great, and with Herb Ellis, he said it lost it's swing towards the end, etc...

Cats like Gabor Szabo and Les Spann weren't technically accomplished guitar players by any means, but Wes appreciated what they were doing from a purely musical standpoint, because that's how Wes approached the music.
With Howard Roberts, it was the same thing; he went into very intricate detail about what HR was doing musically, rather than just saying he had great chops, which is probably all he could say about someone like Benson.

I don’t get in what sense that George Benson “was a better guitar player” than Wes.

[sgcim]

Like I've said repeatedly, people have different musical tastes, and everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I think George Benson is actually a better jazz guitarist than Wes, and yes on straight ahead jazz too. Here are clips of Wes and George improvising on the same jazz tune.

That being said, they are both giants of jazz guitar in my book, giants who I look up to and really admire. They are both musical geniuses who set a very high standard for what it means to be a great jazz musician. George is at the top of the list of great jazz guitarists for me, though. I studied his style extensively when I was learning how to play jazz. There are a lot of great guitarists who I admire, and consider to be virtuosos, a lot.

Like you said, people have different musical tastes, and I couldn't stand Benson's version of Round Midnight compared to Wes'.
Talk about playing with no soul, Benson trots out there and whips through the song at 60bpm without any deviation in the tempo, like he's playing with a metronome.
There's very little melodic conception going on, like there should be when you're playing a ballad. He could be playing an up tempo tune. He just plays all his standard up tempo licks, without any melodic invention- just his 16th note runs all over the place, and his corny blues/country licks that don't swing at all. When asked what he thought of Benson as a jazz guitarist, Pat Martino said, "he's a pretty good R&B player".

I could go on, but you get the idea.

With Wes, it wasn't a technical exercise at all. Every note had a meaning in the phrases he was composing spontaneously. He used call and response beautifully when he plays those high note trills on the 12th fret and above, and answers them with a little melody way down on the B and G strings, back and forth, like a preacher does in the church, with the congregation answering him back.
He's constantly varying his use of chords and melody, like those diminished chords he plays in big band style, followed by single line notes or octaves, so it doesn't sound like a boring technical exercise like Benson's solo did.
Because of all the nuances in his phrases and melodies that he's playing, the time is not like a metronome like Benson's soulless circus act of trotting out his fast, meaningless runs, which again have almost a country-like feel to them because of his stupid picking technique that sacrifices swing for speed.
If you look at the way Wes plays some great melodic idea, and then looks at the audience, it's almost like he's talking to them, which he is doing, musically. Benson ain't talkin' to no one; he's just showing off how fast he can play his soulless licks.
With Wes, there's continuity from phase to phrase with every note choice perfectly completing his musical sentences he's hearing in his head.. When Benson tries to do that, it makes no sense musically..I don't get the idea that he's hearing anything in his head; just rattling off every fast lick he plays on any tune-ballad or not. Wes is playing a ballad, and only uses a few fast runs to give some contrast to the beautiful melodies he's composing on the spot.
Wes shows he respects the jazz tradition by playing Monk's great ending with the soulful Harold Mabern, another of the great group of players from Memphis, along with Frank Strozier, Geo. Coleman etc...).
Benson shows he has no respect for jazz history by completely ignoring Monk's great ending, and just playing a corny turnaround, where he plays one of the most meaningless cadenzas I've ever heard, with the fast notes bubbling out like some cornball country picker, just to showoff again to the audience how fast he can play.
Wes plays a shorter cadenza at the end, and rather than playing some meaningless fast stuff like Benson does, plays another call and response idea, using an E7th#9 as the choir, and his octaves as the preacher.
That's my opinion.
Here's the classic version by Wes. If you compare the live version to this, it's a completely different solo, even in the chord substitutions Wes and Melvin Rhyne use.:

[James Haze]

Like you said, people have different musical tastes, and I couldn't stand Benson's version of Round Midnight compared to Wes'.
Talk about playing with no soul, Benson trots out there and whips through the song at 60bpm without any deviation in the tempo, like he's playing with a metronome.
There's very little melodic conception going on, like there should be when you're playing a ballad. He could be playing an up tempo tune. He just plays all his standard up tempo licks, without any melodic invention- just his 16th note runs all over the place, and his corny blues/country licks that don't swing at all. When asked what he thought of Benson as a jazz guitarist, Pat Martino said, "he's a pretty good R&B player".

I could go on, but you get the idea.

With Wes, it wasn't a technical exercise at all. Every note had a meaning in the phrases he was composing spontaneously. He used call and response beautifully when he plays those high note trills on the 12th fret and above, and answers them with a little melody way down on the B and G strings, back and forth, like a preacher does in the church, with the congregation answering him back.
He's constantly varying his use of chords and melody, like those diminished chords he plays in big band style, followed by single line notes or octaves, so it doesn't sound like a boring technical exercise like Benson's solo did.
Because of all the nuances in his phrases and melodies that he's playing, the time is not like a metronome like Benson's soulless circus act of trotting out his fast, meaningless runs, which again have almost a country-like feel to them because of his stupid picking technique that sacrifices swing for speed.
If you look at the way Wes plays some great melodic idea, and then looks at the audience, it's almost like he's talking to them, which he is doing, musically. Benson ain't talkin' to no one; he's just showing off how fast he can play his soulless licks.
With Wes, there's continuity from phase to phrase with every note choice perfectly completing his musical sentences he's hearing in his head.. When Benson tries to do that, it makes no sense musically..I don't get the idea that he's hearing anything in his head; just rattling off every fast lick he plays on any tune-ballad or not. Wes is playing a ballad, and only uses a few fast runs to give some contrast to the beautiful melodies he's composing on the spot.
Wes shows he respects the jazz tradition by playing Monk's great ending with the soulful Harold Mabern, another of the great group of players from Memphis, along with Frank Strozier, Geo. Coleman etc...).
Benson shows he has no respect for jazz history by completely ignoring Monk's great ending, and just playing a corny turnaround, where he plays one of the most meaningless cadenzas I've ever heard, with the fast notes bubbling out like some cornball country picker, just to showoff again to the audience how fast he can play.
Wes plays a shorter cadenza at the end, and rather than playing some meaningless fast stuff like Benson does, plays another call and response idea, using an E7th#9 as the choir, and his octaves as the preacher.
That's my opinion.
Here's the classic version by Wes. If you compare the live version to this, it's a completely different solo, even in the chord substitutions Wes and Melvin Rhyne use.:

That thing IMO is dragging and has no energy at all, and is extremely boring and uninteresting, but if this is what you like, that's fine with me, I believe in freedom of choice and freedom of expression. I believe in artistic freedom for artists. That way there is something for everyone, of all musical tastes, to enjoy. So if that's what you like, cool , and if someone else likes a different style/version that is totally cool too. Art, at its best, is all about freedom of expression.

Remember, though, George was not with his band in that clip, he was just a guest sitting in with McCoy Tyner's band at a gig. So as far as exactly what cadences were played was most likely Tyner's choice since it was his band and his gig.

[djg]

When asked what he thought of Benson as a jazz guitarist, Pat Martino said, "he's a pretty good R&B player".

that was pat's dad.

with regard to quotes this is not your week

[wintermoon]

that was pat's dad.

with regard to quotes this is not your week

hey, at least we learned how to spell Twardzik
baby steps.....

[wintermoon]

That thing IMO is dragging and has no energy at all, and is extremely boring and uninteresting, but if this is what you like, that's fine with me, I believe in freedom of choice and freedom of expression. I believe in artistic freedom for artists. That way there is something for everyone, of all musical tastes, to enjoy. So if that's what you like, cool , and if someone else likes a different style/version that is totally cool too. Art, at its best, is all about freedom of expression.

Remember, though, George was not with his band in that clip, he was just a guest sitting in with McCoy Tyner's band at a gig. So as far as exactly what cadences were played was most likely Tyner's choice since it was his band and his gig.

You're right, freedom of choice etc, but I gotta agree w sgcim, Wes was the MAN, and Benson would be the first one to tell you that. Can't say I'm a fan of organist Rhyne though, he's the boring one in that clip to me. I don't know that Wes suffered w Rhyne as his organist, he plays superbly no matter what, but when you hear him w say, Jimmy Smith or Wynton Kelly it naturally kicks his playing up anorher notch. I'm not sure if Wes worked out that tag at the end of RM but it's so musical and sounds brilliant even after having heard it so many times. I like some of Bensons stuff ok but he wouldn't even crack my list of favorite jazz guitarists. Sure he can play clean/fast but that has nothing to do w musicality, and as far as being interesting isn't in the same stratosphere as Wes (to me)
I can't really remember hearing too much that Benson played that really made me go "wow" aside from his prodigious chops but Wes makes me think "wow" more often than not w his ideas alone. sgcim hit it on the head, he's having a kind of call and response musical conversation, even w himself. He doesn't just make me think "how did he execute that?" but rather "how did he think of that let alone execute it?" Still as thrilling as the first time I heard him.
This isn't a Benson bashing post, he'obviously can play but I just dig Wes that much more, as you said, freedom of choice. that said, Benson is a great guitar player but couldn't carry Wes guitar case. well, maybe that's a bit much.
I think

[James Haze]

Mr. Lawson,

The truth is, real beauty comes from within, not the outside package. That is what I've always believed since I was an adolescent.

If people really knew me, they would know that. That is why I don't get upset when people judge me without knowing me. I just remember that it is not about me, because they don't really know me. So it's really about them, and their misconceptions, and their lack of information about who I really am. It isn't fair to judge someone without really knowing them, because you’re acting out of ignorance about whom that person really is.

I like this saying to remind me not to judge and not to let others judge me who don't really know me: “Doubt yourself, and you doubt everything you see. Judge yourself, and you see judges everywhere. But if you listen to the sound of your own voice, you can rise above doubt and judgment, and you can see forever.”

This one too: "Don't judge, and you will be happy, forgive, and you will be happier, love everyone, and you will be happiest."

Sending out good vibrations, peace and love to everyone, you too, Mr. Lawson.

[Christian Miller]

Wtf Benson and Wes are two of the most swinging of all time. I’m not a particular fan of George, but my god, every time I sit down with the man’s playing my awe increases. And when it comes to feel he’s one of the GOATs for sure.

And then people darkly muttering about ‘licks’ and ‘real improv’ whatever the hell that is. Different people play differently. I don’t need them to play the same. The only sin is not to swing!

(I remember people who used to be a bit disparaging about Cannonball. I haven’t heard much of that lately…)

I suppose people find Wes and GB a natural area of comparison (including Miles lol), but for me they don’t really sound that much alike. I’m not feeling the urge myself to find the apples to be wanting as oranges, but if you do, it’s your life.

[ragman1]

I agree, Wes and Benson really are two different kettles of fish. Wes is much simpler for a start. I mean, gosh, they are two different people, aren't they?

[Christian Miller]

I do feel there’s a lot of Django, western swing almost, in George’s playing.

[ragman1]

Possibly in some of it but I'm not sure it pervades his playing. How many Django tunes did he do? Going through Spotify, I'm having trouble finding even one!

[Christian Miller]

Possibly in some of it but I'm not sure it pervades his playing. How many Django tunes did he do?

I hear it especially on cadenzas and free time things.

Part of it might be his technique which is similar.

Manouche jazz players are generally really into George as well….

[Christian Miller]

Possibly in some of it but I'm not sure it pervades his playing. How many Django tunes did he do? Going through Spotify, I'm having trouble finding even one!

Eh? saying a player is influenced by or sounds like someone does not mean they play their tunes necessarily.

Otoh Allan Holdsworth recorded Nuages and I would not say the Django influence is terribly discernible lol. (But we know Allan listened to Django a lot growing up. Influences are mysterious things.)

[ragman1]

I haven't analysed it that closely. Example?

Manouche jazz players are generally really into George as well….

Well, they might be, but was he into them???

[Christian Miller]

I haven't analysed it that closely. Example?

Well I just listened to some George with my ears and a bit of it reminded me of Django, esp the twiddles. I wish I could remember the thing I was listening to, but I can’t. So there.

Well, they might be, but was he into them???

No idea, I merely said his playing reminded me, or I felt there was an influence. Don’t know for certain. Otoh Wes was directly influenced by Django.