Re: the "el lame'o" guitarists who ain't got no soul

[ruger9]

Do I really have to educate you, people, on what the term "giant" in the world of jazz means? Really? I figured you guys would at least know that already. Okay, here's the definition of a giant: In jazz, the term “giant” is used to refer to a musician who has made significant contributions to the genre and has had a lasting impact on the music. The term is often used to describe musicians who have been influential in shaping the sound of jazz and who have inspired other musicians to follow in their footsteps.

If you don't think Joe Pass 1) made a significant contribution to the genre of jazz, 2) has had a lasting impact on the music, 3) has been influential in shaping the sound of jazz guitar, especially solo jazz guitar, and 4) has inspired other musicians to follow in his footsteps; IF, you don't think that Joe Pass has done all of those things, then I would say to you, "get a clue," LOL, because his virtuoso musicianship did accomplish all of those things, in spades. The guy was a straight virtuoso with no argument, and if any of you want to argue with that, then I say you should prolly talk to a psychiatrist pronto.

I "Binged up" Joe pass just now, and the first three websites that came up, one had him listed as the 9th greatest jazz guitarist of all time, the next one, from a school of music, had him on the list of "The 50 Giants of Jazz Guitar," (which also proves that other educated jazz musicians are familiar with Joe Pass being called a giant of jazz guitar) and the third website had him listed as the 4th greatest jazz guitarist of all time. IMO, because of all that, he qualifies to be considered a giant of jazz guitar.

Do you all need me to explain to you what "Binged up" means, since you've prolly never heard it described that way before?

Wes, Joe, George, and both Pat's are some of the players on my list of jazz guitar giants. If one of you comes on here saying, "who's the giant George, or who are the Giant's Pat, "I think I might throw my coffee cup across the room. C'mon, do I have to explain everything?

Methinks thou dost protest too much.

[ragman1]

It's okay, it's a misunderstanding (on my part too).

James said

'The giant, Joe said repeatedly...'

And somebody asked 'Who's that?' and James said Joe Pass. So I, and maybe others, assumed that Giant Joe was a nickname for Joe Pass.

Actually James never said that, he just called him a giant, which he is, of course. Amongst many great players.


It's all over now :-)

[Christian Miller]

You said he was a giant and he wasn’t literally 10’ tall. Lies!!!

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Actually James never said that

Actually, he did say that in post # 145:

Okay, fair enough, I suppose I'm still a bit surprised that even if you had never heard that nickname before

I think one of the reasons for the rancor that’s creeping into more and more posts is that so many don’t read the items that they criticize or contradict carefully enough (if at all). Some even contradict their own prior posts and deny that they said something they clearly did say.

Maybe if we all try to read an entire thread before jumping in with both feet, and we review what we said earlier in it, we’ll have a bit less disagreement and more pleasant conversations.

[Litterick]

This is why we can't have nice things.

[StringNavigator]

As a young tyro, I backed-up John Lee Hooker in Montreal on a double bill with B.B. King. Evening and matinee. It was all about the blues, but it was a shining example of soul. Hooker bared his soul when he played slow. It was hard to follow, as he didn't care at all about when he made a chord change. But to the listener it made perfect sense. Then he would scoot us off the stage as he went solo. I got to watch him from stage left and was surprised when I had noticed the odour of tobacco and turned to find B.B. King standing next to me smoking a pipe and watching also, and for a few minutes he was like a member of the audience. I didn't interfere with any small talk. Then Hooker called us back and he ramped it up into a boogie rave-up, that got everyone on their feet.

When B.B. King came on, his playing was everything you expected and more. The sweetness and soul emanating from his guitar far exceeded what we heard on his records. Personalising one's instrument may, indeed, be a form of magic with his seven piece band swaying to the blues in unison. Not a sound from the audience until they applauded. Each face enraptured by the event on stage. Even when a stray radio signal came through an amplifier while he was singing (local CJAD broadcasting a classical/choral recording), B.B. King looked up towards Heaven with his arms out, thanking the Angels for their choral assistance.

This is the closest that I ever experienced soul in music and showmanship. They were just being themselves, but with intensity. Projecting. They became the persona that was billed outside. I think that soul is as close to magic as one can get. An intense burst of the inner soul peeking through the outer, physical being. Like the spirit of the Gospel invoked by closeness between people. Some are too dense to allow this. Others are more transparent. We should all pray more often.

::

[A. Kingstone]

StringNavigator - That is an amazing experience.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Hooker bared his soul when he played slow. It was hard to follow, as he didn't care at all about when he made a chord change.

I can no longer remember where I heard this story. But I think it was Bob Margolin who was backing Lightnin’ Hopkins and had a lot of trouble figuring out when and why he changed chords when he did. Margolin (or whoever it was, but it was someone of that stature) stopped him to point out that the chords in whatever song they were playing changed somewhere else. Hopkins looked at him calmly and said, “Lightnin’ changes when Lightnin’ wants to change”.

[chasranney]

Not necessary, thanks! Please don't trouble yourself further.

Do I really have to educate you, people, on what the term "giant" in the world of jazz means?... [/FONT][/COLOR]

[ruger9]

As a young tyro, I backed-up John Lee Hooker in Montreal on a double bill with B.B. King. Evening and matinee. It was all about the blues, but it was a shining example of soul. Hooker bared his soul when he played slow. It was hard to follow, as he didn't care at all about when he made a chord change. But to the listener it made perfect sense. Then he would scoot us off the stage as he went solo. I got to watch him from stage left and was surprised when I had noticed the odour of tobacco and turned to find B.B. King standing next to me smoking a pipe and watching also, and for a few minutes he was like a member of the audience. I didn't interfere with any small talk. Then Hooker called us back and he ramped it up into a boogie rave-up, that got everyone on their feet.

When B.B. King came on, his playing was everything you expected and more. The sweetness and soul emanating from his guitar far exceeded what we heard on his records. Personalising one's instrument may, indeed, be a form of magic with his seven piece band swaying to the blues in unison. Not a sound from the audience until they applauded. Each face enraptured by the event on stage. Even when a stray radio signal came through an amplifier while he was singing (local CJAD broadcasting a classical/choral recording), B.B. King looked up towards Heaven with his arms out, thanking the Angels for their choral assistance.

This is the closest that I ever experienced soul in music and showmanship. They were just being themselves, but with intensity. Projecting. They became the persona that was billed outside. I think that soul is as close to magic as one can get. An intense burst of the inner soul peeking through the outer, physical being. Like the spirit of the Gospel invoked by closeness between people. Some are too dense to allow this. Others are more transparent. We should all pray more often.

::

I couldn't love, or agree with, this post any more.

[ruger9]

I can no longer remember where I heard this story. But I think it was Bob Margolin who was backing Lightnin’ Hopkins and had a lot of trouble figuring out when and why he changed chords when he did. Margolin (or whoever it was, but it was someone of that stature) stopped him to point out that the chords in whatever song they were playing changed somewhere else. Hopkins looked at him calmly and said, “Lightnin’ changes when Lightnin’ wants to change”.

So THAT'S where that comes from. I heard a song with that line as a lyric, and I never got it.

[RJVB]

I couldn't love, or agree with, this post any more.

Idem, except the relimumbodumbo that I can't agree with anymore (since I grew up at a bit over 20 or so).

[ruger9]

Idem, except the relimumbodumbo that I can't agree with anymore (since I grew up at a bit over 20 or so).

In English, please?

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

There’s another great story like these about Furry Lewis. I think it comes from Joni Mitchell, who was a big fan and wrote a song about him (“Furry Sings the Blues”). Either Joni or a guitarist close to her who was also a huge fan finally got to meet him. After the usual adoring fan stuff, the questions started with “I always loved that lick you played on [some tune], would you show me how you play it?” Lewis just grunted “No!”, to which the startled guitarist replied “Why??”

“Because I’m Furry Lewis and you’re not.”

(I’ve always wondered if that’s where Chevy Chase got the line he used on SNL.)

[StringNavigator]

Someone mentioned big band. I grew up listening to big band, and still love it to this day. I wonder if when Glen Miller Orchestra played "Moonlight Serenade", were they FEELING it? ALL of them? Or does just the conductor (Miller) have to feel it? Or did only the composer (Miller) have to "feel" it when they wrote it? Because *I* feel it. Interesting.

Our Boys (and Girl) Will Shine Tonight.

[unknownguitarplayer]

There’s another great story like these about Furry Lewis. I think it comes from Joni Mitchell, who was a big fan and wrote a song about him (“Furry Sings the Blues”). Either Joni or a guitarist close to her who was also a huge fan finally got to meet him. After the usual adoring fan stuff, the questions started with “I always loved that lick you played on [some tune], would you show me how you play it?” Lewis just grunted “No!”, to which the startled guitarist replied “Why??”

“Because I’m Furry Lewis and you’re not.”

(I’ve always wondered if that’s where Chevy Chase got the line he used on SNL.)

I heard the story was Joni but Furry's line was "Because I don't like you", which she uses in the song.

[RJVB]

I wonder if when Glen Miller Orchestra played "Moonlight Serenade", were they FEELING it? ALL of them? Or does just the conductor (Miller) have to feel it?

Interesting question indeed. I've always taken the position that an orchestra/band/ensemble is the instrument of the conductor in front. Well, always ... after I had the chance to see a young Seiji Ozawa conduct various orchestras in lighter programmes. Individual members have to feel what the conductor wants and if they don't, that's what rehearsals are for. Presumably that means they have appropriate that feeling, lest the performance sounds mechanic or faked.
It's even more interesting when there's no conductor but just a leader who cannot indicate every single nuance.

I suppose @campus5 might have something to say hear

[StringNavigator]

I heard that Wes Montgomery thought a lot of Joe Diorio's playing before most others became aware of him. And that has to be the gold seal of all credentials. Joe Diorio said that music was the voice of God. And that alone places musicians as the most special of all professions. But he also said that anyone of us can become a musician. We are all geniuses. It just takes years to learn to play. (I think he was referring to years of dedicated time.) His playing here is impeccable, and as he drifts away while playing, it's as if he is entering another realm, letting the physical slide, and perhaps letting God speak.
Soulful playing from Joe Diorio, RIP.

Not on topic, but I notice the height of his guitar and the high angle of the neck, very conducive to playing. And the Mel Bay plectrum grip. His tone seems to come from that, more than the LH. And perfect coordination between RH and LH. I get something out of this performance every time I play it. I also slow it down and will be using it as part of my praxis. His technique is exemplary. Soul needs technique. Crescendos, Vibrato, Plectrum, Tone, Diminished Scale, Clean Arpeggios, Multiple Surrounds, Descending Runs that grab the last note off the E-String... I can't yet understand the rest of it. It's like a Buddhist Koan. Keep repeating it until you get the message. Anyone who laughs at scales never watched JD play. He always said that the guitar was meant to be played like a piano, but that no piano could sound as beautiful or duplicate the voicings possible on the guitar. At any rate, he makes 4 fingers sound like 10.

[RJVB]

Joe Diorio said that music was the voice of god. And that alone places musicians as the most special of all professions.

For him and you maybe, but cheap, unverifiable statements don't mean squat for any profession. Unless ... I do know that many musicians are considered gods, maybe that's what he referred to.

His tone seems to come from that, more than the LH.

Well, evidently. There's a reason why tone production and phrasing are controlled by the right hand in string instruments (or for the upper/melody register in keyboard instruments). It requires a much larger variety of fine muscle control than what the left hand does, though you can learn to use your non-dominant hand (all left-handed musicians are definitely not guitarists playing a lefty).

[James Haze]

for him and you maybe, but cheap, unverifiable statements don't mean squat for any profession.

LOL

i do know that many musicians are considered gods, maybe that's what he referred to.

Yes, many musicians are considered gods, c'mon, everyone knows that.

Which guitar players do you fine folks consider to be gods?

[yebdox]

Anyway, I think accusations of musicians being soul-less are more statements about the speaker than about the musician.

Completely agree. Along with judgements about talent, authenticity and personal taste. Listening, like learning, is a continuum of exposure, attention and effort. Stop where you want along the way, but don’t assume that that’s all there is, or that your understanding is somehow superior to others. Humility is helpful in most human endeavors and relationships, something that is often missing in this and other forums. I do appreciate it when I see it here, though.

[sgcim]

The Wes book by Oliver Dunskus quotes some of it:

Attachment 102719

Wow, I never knew he had a Blindfold Test in 1967. What Wes says is the stone cold truth, so we got:
Joe Pass- 4 Stars
Les Spann- 4 Stars
Howard Roberts- 4 Stars
Gabor Szabo- 3& 1/2 Stars
Herb Ellis- 3 Stars
Grant Green- 3 Stars
George Benson-- 3 Stars

Notice how I cleverly listed George Benson at the bottom, even though his rating was equal to Ellis' and Green's.
Most of you will claim bias on my part- and you'd be absolutely right!

[James Haze]

Wow, I never knew he had a Blindfold Test in 1967. What Wes says is the stone cold truth, so we got:
Joe Pass- 4 Stars
Les Spann- 4 Stars
Howard Roberts- 4 Stars
Gabor Szabo- 3& 1/2 Stars
Herb Ellis- 3 Stars
Grant Green- 3 Stars
George Benson-- 3 Stars

Notice how I cleverly listed George Benson at the bottom, even though his rating was equal to Ellis' and Green's.
Most of you will claim bias on my part- and you'd be absolutely right!

Yes, and we all know how "Accurate" these "best ever" lists are, LOL, like the Guitar player Magazine "50 best guitar players" list is, or the Rolling Stone Magazine "100 best guitar players" list is, or the "sexiest man ever" lists you'll see on other rags. C'mon, if you ask 100 people, independently, you'll get 100 different lists. Different people have different tastes in music and have different opinions, (remember that's all they are, opinions.) I'm sure you've all heard the old saying, "opinions are like a_ _ holes, everyone has one." So, although you'll probably find many of the same guitarists on a "100 best ever" list in some genre, the order in which the people appear on the list will vary greatly. Although, personally I agree on who RS magazine picked as the #1 best of all time, that is obviously not a jazz list though.

For example, on the list that you posted, I would put George Benson at #1, even ahead of Wes Montgomery himself. That's nothing to waste time getting upset about, it's just my opinion. However, in my opinion, George Benson is a better guitar player than Wes was, but hey, George is 20 years younger than Wes was, and therefore had Wes Montgemery's recordings to learn from, as well as the other early pioneers of jazz guitar.

[Jonah]

Wow, I never knew he had a Blindfold Test in 1967. What Wes says is the stone cold truth, so we got:
Joe Pass- 4 Stars
Les Spann- 4 Stars
Howard Roberts- 4 Stars
Gabor Szabo- 3& 1/2 Stars
Herb Ellis- 3 Stars
Grant Green- 3 Stars
George Benson-- 3 Stars

Notice how I cleverly listed George Benson at the bottom, even though his rating was equal to Ellis' and Green's.
Most of you will claim bias on my part- and you'd be absolutely right!

Wes made concise but very destinctive analysis of every solo, not just 'good/bad'.
Also he rocognized almost all the players and that means he made judgement rather on particular solo within the context of the work and style of this player.
Actually overall he said that everyone was good - just maybe not as good as they could be in their best performances.
Only on Joe Pass his judgement really stands out - as he clearly says something like: I was so involved in music I could not concentrate on guessing who it could be.. this is what the music is for really, isn't it?

So making 'Wes guitarists rating' out of it would be a little manipulative really...

[James Haze]

Now I'm confused. You set up this thread as a contrast between "el lame'o" as lacking soul, in contrast with those that do. So if the opposite of having soul is "el lame'o" maybe you need to clarify why the music that you say you like but still isn't soulful is not "el lame'o" music.

Well there are degrees to things, like when guys rate women on a scale of 1 to 10, if she gets a 10, she's super pretty, if she gets a 2, then hopefully she has a great personality . If she's a 12, then she's exceptionally pretty even amongst the beautiful.

It's one of those emotional connection things that's difficult to put into words. I'll tell you what, though, that so many people here seem to be having such a difficult time comprehending what having soul in your playing actually means, that in itself is an indication of what I'm referring to.