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I can actually see the sense of saying Bird "killed jazz." If jazz was defined in the late 30's as playing big-band swing at clubs and sock-hops, or confined solely to the kind of music that preceded bop, then for sure, what Bird did was pretty cataclysmic and brought about a significant change in the direction of music. You can also say that Led Zeppelin "killed rock" if you define rock as the Hollies. So sure, Bird made it pretty much impossible to play "jazz" the way it was played before, unless of course one is trying specifically to keep that earlier tradition alive-which I think is a worthy enterprise. But, if "jazz" = New Orleans, Dixieland, and white swing bands, then for sure, Bird killed jazz the way a butterfly kills a caterpillar.
Originally Posted by sgcim
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08-18-2023 08:39 AM
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Bingo. What I was just trying to say in my last post. Originally Posted by grahambop
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How could an argument about whether one musician is better than another be settled? What objective standard could be used to decide the matter?
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I had always heard that’s what Cab Calloway said about Dizzy Gillespie. Originally Posted by jzucker
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My Nintendo Entertainment System is better than your Sega Megadrive.
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I am in this, as in all things, correct
Confidence is a wonderful quality to have! Originally Posted by sgcim
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So Wes is like the NES Originally Posted by CliffR
And GB is like the Megadrive
(And I’m like a ZX81)
but why not both?
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Oh yeah, we're in a pretty good place... Originally Posted by grahambop
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Bird killed jazz? Wait a minute... I thought Coltrane killed jazz in '64. And then Miles killed it again in '69. Didn't he also maim it in '59 with the birth of modal? But that's the most popular jazz album of all time. JC did some serious damage in '60.
Seems to have 9 lives like the cats that play it.
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When did Phil Woods ever complain about Coltrane? They played together on George Russell's album "NY, NY", and "Legrand Jazz" Originally Posted by jzucker
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he didnt. both of you guys suck at the quoting game Originally Posted by sgcim
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True that, I appreciate George for what he does AND Wes for what he accomplished on guitar. BOTH of them are great to me, and the only reason I mentioned that I prefer George's playing is because some negative people on here were making disparaging remarks about George, so I figured someone had to stick up for him. Truly I do prefer George's style, he's one of the best to ever do it in my opinion, but hey, that's just one man's opinion. No sweat, no hate if you prefer Wes, It's just a few guys blathering away on a forum about jazz guitar, not peace negotiations between waring nations, or something really important, LOL. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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James,
Very nicely distilled!
For me I enjoy Wes more. On his early efforts you hear a bit more “bite” on the lower frets. As time and sessions continued, this sound changed. A bit more “less treble” and a few more chord melodies and solo efforts. The octaves became more dominant as he moved into the A&M era.
The “best” way to listen to him is to scramble his Resonance, Fantasy, Pacific Jazz, Riverside, various lesser name labels, Verve, then A&M tunes, and then listen for his different voicings, tempos, asking-asnwering, arpeggios, and most importantly, the silent gaps, the mark of an artist.
Yes, George is no doubt talented. But as you stated we are all different and this ain’t the Stanley Cup, Super Bowl, World Series, UN Security Council. It’s just how all of us hear things…..differently!
Tom
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I thought this fits nicely into this thread: Rodney Jones talks about playing a blues and the blues.
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Funny that taking a quick look around here, there are a huge number of posts praising George Benson as one of the greatest jazz guitarists ever, as there should be. Then, in this thread, everyone comes on here to put down his playing, except for maybe one other person besides me.
Some people around here seem to get some kind of cheap, boorish thrill out of disagreeing with what I say on this forum. That kind of behavior, to put it mildly, is juvenile at best.
IMO, when cats put down the playing of the jazz guitar masters on an online forum, they invalidate themselves.
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I believe it may have started with your provocative thread title. It’s kinda like someone saying, “Wow, your wife is pretty homely. Who do you think will win the game tonight?”
AKA
Originally Posted by James Haze
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I would say you're wrong. The kind of thing I'm referring to has happened before on this forum. It's not the first time. Originally Posted by AKA
Then, a bunch of people had the nerve to come in this thread posting Christian stuff, acting like they are Christians, because I mentioned "having soul in your playing." Since they brought it up, according to Jesus THE most important thing to do to inherit the Kingdom is LOVE, that's what He said, Love God and Love all others as much as you love yourself, then he told a story that was about helping out and being kind to someone who was beat up, bloody, and had been robbed on the side of the road, a person who was from a group who actually were considered an enemy of the Jews at that time. The men in the story were from two groups who had fought wars against each other in those times. Yet the man in the story did not hold that against him, saw he was hurt, and helped him.
Plus, there is an awful lot of instruction in the Bible about FORGIVENESS. No, that's not about giving people money, it's about giving someone a break when they do something you perceive as wrong. In fact, it says that if you judge others harshly, then God himself will judge YOU HARSHLY. It says that if you judge others, that God will judge you and not forgive you of your transgressions. So if any of you "really" believe in that, you better watch yourselves about judging other people harshly, because He is judging you too. According to Christian doctrine, a REAL CHRISTIAN should still remain kind even to people who have sinned against them, and try to work things out kindly and peacefully. That's quite a bit different from what has been happening in this thread.
Also, I will say that you are incorrect in your premise, because I have had numerous times, BEFORE THIS THREAD, where I've had all kinds of vitriol and mean spirited comments directed at me in threads about things I have posted here which were not provocative in any way. So this kind of mean spirited comments being directed at me on this forum is nothing new. This is Internet BULLYING, is what is really is, hiding behind some screen name, which is really cowardly.
I started a thread here a while back, just recommending people watch a highly rated TV series I had been streaming. There is nothing provocative about that, nor about the show itself. Yet I had nothing but all kinds of nasty comments and vitriol directed at me in that thread, it was really disgusting. In fact, one of the worst nasty posts was from "Christian Miller" (How apropos that is his screen name considering the subject of this thread, etc) a frequent poster here. The comment was so mean and nasty that it got deleted, and he (much to his credit) did apologize to me profusely in the thread after that, and I have forgiven him and have never said anything mean directed towards him on here.
Also remember that I did not direct my comments in my OP towards anyone here specifically. I never mentioned anyone's name, and never stated I was talking about anyone here, which I was not. It was just a general comment really about some young jazz players I had been listening to on the internet.
All that to say, this is far from the first time I've been subjected to nasty passive-aggressive, vitriolic, mean spirited comments directed at me here on this forum, AND this IS the first time that I have posted anything even close to being "provocative" on this forum.
So your assertion that this kind of vitriolic behavior directed at me "started with" this provocative post is quite inaccurate.
So maybe, given all that, I really don't care what you think about my post?
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Edit: Just thought I would add that I am not a Christian in any way shape or form, I just have read the book several times, and therefore I know what that book actually says. I no longer identify as Christian because I don't believe that a lot of people who "say" they are Christian actually literally believe what the Bible says. Before I broke free from that, I actually visited a weird "church" where the preachers would straight out say that "they don't believe the Bible literally." They would "literally" say that to their congregation. LOL. Fact is, If they don't 'literally' believe the Bible, then truthfully they don't believe the Bible, simple as that. So they kind of sort of believe the Bible? LOL. In their case, they just believed the parts of the Bible that jibed with what their leader's philosophy is and ignored the parts that clearly contradicted what he said. That makes it a "cult of personality" rather than an organization strictly adhering to the Christian principles as explained by Jesus himself, which really makes the whole thing counterfeit and fraudulent. That's just using the guise of Christianity to draw unsuspecting people in, then switching it to something else that really isn't that. That is called "bait and switch," one of the oldest slimy, used car salesman, sales tactics in the book.
I just have seen waaaayyyyyy too many people, "claiming" to be Christian, but doing things that a person who REALLY believes in that book would not do, because it contradicts the way Jesus said a believer is supposed to behave. Same thing with people's mean spirited, vitriolic comments on this forum. Just saying, because a bunch of people came on here posting all kinds of Christian related comments and videos earlier in this thread. Given all the unchristian like behavior and treatment that I have experienced on this forum, that all strikes me as quite hypocritical.
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^ When you create trollish threads, you usually get some trolling back. What do you expect.
FWIW, I didn't grow up hearing any Benson. When I got into jazz I had heard that he was a crossover RnB and jazz guy and wasn't expecting much. When I heard Benson play jazz I was impressed and thought it was quite good. It might be true that Wes is a better pure jazz player than GB, but GB sure doesn't suck at jazz.
About the Bible. It also says that people are imperfect and that satan has a lot of control on the world. That doesn't make Christianity hypocritical if Christians are imperfect. They're literally made that way. That would be like if people get math problems wrong, you attack math and say it's fraudulent.
Also, it isn't illogical to say that it's not rational to follow the Bible word for word. Are we really supposed to go sacrifice a bunch of bulls and go do some burnt offerings and if we don't, we're not Christians? That's BS. All Christianity doesn't derive from the Bible. It is also having an actual relationship with God and interpreting what you should do from that. You can also bounce ideas off of other Christians and interpret from there.
About soul being of utmost importance. It is a good thing to have. But all music doesn't have to be founded off soul or it's lame. There are different types of inspiration in various types of music which are valid as well.
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Your consistent use of capitalisation seems to contradict that but more importantly: Originally Posted by James Haze
Most related forums have rules against the discussion of religion, which is clearly a very good thing (and not just because I think that's all a stinkin' big pile of shite that makes me want to flush my login credentials down the toilet).
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This thread started out pretty good, with interesting input form quite a few.
As an observer, it started going off the rails when soul was connected to religion and older religious music. Unfortunately, that opened the door to get way too deep into our individual religious views.
I belong to two other forums that have a solid stance against anything political and religious. There are moderators who keep an eye on things and when either of those two topics surface, they wipe out the posts. Sometimes these moderators get a little too picky but that’s better than expecting everyone to read topics they either don’t care about or they get angrily responsive over.
How about we do a better job of self policing?
FWIW
Tom
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You took issue right off the bat because I noted that the church was the progenitor of pretty much all music known as soul because just about every soul artist borrowed all the techniques they learned at church. You response: "Dude, I have no idea what you are talking about...." and carried on with your insulting post about how I should talk to someone with PHD after their name and how it may have originated there but "has nothing to do with that". You set the tone. Originally Posted by James Haze
Now you are telling everyone what a real christian is like because you read the bible a few times and now YOU KNOW better. That's pride James. Christians don't care what non-christians think a christian should be. I don't care what non-orthodox christians think about christianity. You should let it go.
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+++ Originally Posted by TAA
Political debates can be useful (though mostly on other forums) but we really don't need to know about each other's religious views or god-fearing attitudes. (There was a remark about cats a few posts back that's very relevant in this context too.)
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A thread about soul minus the religious equation is like having a discussion about bacon but refusing to acknowledge it comes from a hog. Originally Posted by RJVB
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“Benson is a better player than Wes.”
“Really? I’m not sure I agree.”
“OMG you’re putting down George Benson!!”
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“OMG are you saying Christ was a pig??” Originally Posted by DawgBone
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Recommandations for Hollowbodies for $600 and under?
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