-
(I agree)
Originally Posted by DawgBone
-
08-26-2023 12:04 PM
-
Maybe the absence of religion as it relates to soul is a valid observation. But the word religion SOMETIMES tells a reader that the rest of us need to be lectured about THEIR view of religion…but we don’t. We don’t visit here for that outcome.
It borders on being similar to the political machinations that divide this great country. I come to this forum to learn about and enjoy jazz guitar topics….not to be lectured or to be converted to political or religious attitudes. As noted above in #272, those efforts have no place here.
Tom
-
Soul music is also a reaction against the church and a reflection of the tension between sacred and secular in African American culture. Moreover soul music itself comes from more sources than just church music. So while I agree that gospel is an important source of soul music, there's a lot more to it than that. It greatly oversimplifies the discussion to reduce soul music to being church music performed outside the church. I mean church music is also an important source for classical music, but it would be ridiculous to argue that without Gregorian chants there'd be no Schoenberg. If you're talking about soul as a quality of human beings (as opposed to a genre of music), I would hope it's obvious that being religious generally or christian specifically is not a requirement for having or drawing on that. And there is such a thing as turkey bacon Originally Posted by DawgBone
-
Tell us all about it then. Originally Posted by TAA
-
Originally Posted by John A.
Soul music is also a reaction against the church and a reflection of the tension between sacred and secular in African American culture. Moreover soul music itself comes from more sources than just church music. So while I agree that gospel is an important source of soul music, there's a lot more to it than that. It greatly oversimplifies the discussion to reduce soul music to being church music performed outside the church. I mean church music is also an important source for classical music, but it would be ridiculous to argue that without Gregorian chants there'd be no Schoenberg. If you're talking about soul as a quality of human beings (as opposed to a genre of music), I would hope it's obvious that being religious generally or christian specifically is not a requirement for having or drawing on that. And there is such a thing as turkey bacon
-
must … resist… Originally Posted by John A.
Soul music is also a reaction against the church and a reflection of the tension between sacred and secular in African American culture. Moreover soul music itself comes from more sources than just church music. So while I agree that gospel is an important source of soul music, there's a lot more to it than that. It greatly oversimplifies the discussion to reduce soul music to being church music performed outside the church. I mean church music is also an important source for classical music, but it would be ridiculous to argue that without Gregorian chants there'd be no Schoenberg. If you're talking about soul as a quality of human beings (as opposed to a genre of music), I would hope it's obvious that being religious generally or christian specifically is not a requirement for having or drawing on that. And there is such a thing as turkey bacon
I can’t.
I mean plainchant has been pretty essential to the development of counterpoint and harmony in western music…. Even in the Middle Ages c14 secular songs were often based on a plainchant tenor, often greatly augmented. This practice of quite literally using plainchant as an organisational structure persisted into the Renaissance and formed a basic part of C18 pedagogy. That stuff has a really long history.
The very basis of V I tonality is based on the characteristics of plain song melodic cadences (the tenor) and the other parts which harmonise with it in good counterpoint. That’s renaissance and baroque theory. Which is to say - the defining feature of Western tonality, the V I cadence (and the ii V I, jazzers) actually derives from harmonising plainchant.
There would be no Western Music in its present form for Schoenberg to be revolutionise.
Furthermore, Schoenberg’s concept of the tone row is arguably analogous to the concept of cantus firmus/tenor in trad counterpoint, which is to say - a plainchant.
So put that in your pipe and smoke it sonny Jim.Last edited by Christian Miller; 08-26-2023 at 01:56 PM.
-
... takes life in hands...
May I point out that 'soul' in a musical context just means depth of feeling, etc, but 'THE soul' is a religious concept which is entirely different. No need to confuse them.
Unless you're absolutely determined to do so, of course
-
Let me put it another way. It would be ridiculous to say that Schoenberg is just church music, especially in regards to his soul. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
-
Soul also refers to a genre of music (roughly speaking, 60s and 70s R&B that conveyed political, social, and spiritual messages beyond typical pop music sentiments). And the soul is not exclusively a religious concept. Originally Posted by ragman1
... takes life in hands...
May I point out that 'soul' in a musical context just means depth of feeling, etc, but 'THE soul' is a religious concept which is entirely different. No need to confuse them.
Unless you're absolutely determined to do so, of course
-
I think that’s a better way to put it. Literally you were incorrect with the Gregorian chant, but ahem … spiritually.. I got what you mean. Originally Posted by John A.
I remember reading Richard Dawkin’s introduction to the book of Genesis years ago. He pointed out that the important of the language of Genesis to biology, how it still shapes and influences the scientific imagination.The influence of religion is not necessarily felt only by the religious.
Otoh I remember a quote from Stravinsky where he said that one thing he and Schoenberg had in common was a fervent belief in God. Schoenberg obviously reaffirmed his Judaism later in life. While obviously not a Christian (although intimately familiar with the Christian musical heritage) I think it would be a distortion to say religious faith wasn’t important to him. Obviously he did not write (much?) liturgical music.
Otoh there are plenty of agnostic or even atheist composers who have written great church music.
-
Like anything else most of them are just there for the paycheck. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
-
Actually, no, I don’t think so. Originally Posted by DawgBone
There’s a lot there to work with as an artist. Whether you believe or not, the Christian story is very resonant on a human level and permeates culture. And for any classical composer, writing, say, a Stabat Mater instantly connects you with a long tradition of composers who have done the same, and it’s a text which offers a tremendous amount emotionally for a composer to work with.
I don’t think you can write very good musical works about scientific themes, for example. People try though.
Anyway, this is all not enormously connected to the concept of ‘soul’ expressed in music at least in the sense that you mean it.
-
One can acknowledge the philosophical concept has also been appropriated by religions, yes. I grew up listening to a lot of "soul music" that was at most an implicit ode to Cupid, and the "soul food" I just prepared really doesn't even have anything to do with hogs. Originally Posted by DawgBone
You can't deny he got skewered. Allegedly. Originally Posted by Kirk Garrett
Chris wouldn't be bad as a name for a pet hog but if I had one I'd probably call them Mo, Sarah or Jaws
-
As a white boy from England I would be hesitant to comment on the importance of church to African American musical culture but it seems pretty central from what little I know, regardless of the lyrical themes of that music. Originally Posted by John A.
Last edited by Christian Miller; 08-26-2023 at 03:16 PM.
-
It's different here. I know many devout atheist musicians who put their faith aside to make that paycheck sunday morning. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
-
Depends how you define good of cours, but you can make other connections Algorithmic composition - Wikipedia (I was going to mention PopCorn but I couldn't find confirmation that it has indeed been composed by an early AI). Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Also... Gustav Holst's The Planets (admittedly at least as many mythological as scientific themes)
-
I was talking about composers, but yes, I think it’s the same the world over… Originally Posted by DawgBone
in any case - organised religion. It’s been keeping musos gainfully employed for a looooong time …
Although a lot of them like the music. But I daresay you aren’t talking about singing William Byrd one voice a part, or playing with a killing Gospel band and choir…
-
It’s not strictly mythological in fact - the aspects of the planets in the suite are astrological not classical iirc. But the effect is the same; it personalises it, makes it human. Holst composes from that. He can compose about human things - war, peace, joy etc. Originally Posted by RJVB
When Colin Matthew’s was commissioned to write Pluto as an addendum to the Planets (that aged well lol) he chose to compose something based on the solar wind iirc. I can’t remember much about the piece tbh
-
Composer Richard Barrett studied genetics at university and scientific themes are scattered among his oeuvre. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
To take just one example, 'Ars Magna Lucis et Umbrae' from DARK MATTER, I quote from his CD liner-notes:
... and so on. Listen out for an awesome performance by Carl Rosman singing and playing contrabass clarinet -Ars Magna Lucis et Umbrae ('The Great Art of Light and Darkness') is the title of a work on optics and the phases of the moon, but also touching on occult matters, published in 1671 by the Jesuit Polymath Athanathius Kircher. The music is 'unfolded' from the solo composition interference, whose title refers to the patterns of light and darkness produced by interacting beams of electromagnetic radiation or subatomic particles, as in the famous 'two-slit experiment'. This experiment, simple and straightforward in itself, nevertheless has deep and unresolved implications for the nature of physical reality, leading as it does to the mysterious and (presently?) unanswerable question of what is 'really happening' at the quantum level of space and time. Around all this is woven a structure for an ensemble consisting mostly of pairs of instruments, which in general alternate between a polyphonic type of elaboration around the solo part, and a harmonic function akin to a continuo group, in which the (electronically-simulated) chamber organ plays an important role. An opening vocal solo is succeeded by a highly intricate canon (by augmentation, using the proportions 2:3:4:5:6:10:15:30) whose strands rotate and eclipse each other like the elements of a mechanical solar system.
-
I’m rather partial to a bit of this
-
To #279
No…..”I won’t tell you all about it then”. To attempt that would perpetuate what I noted in #277, some of the content that doesn’t belong here.
Maybe someone else will tell you all about it, but not me. Sorry.
Tom
-
Big deal. what about a composer who discovered a new bloody planet? Originally Posted by James W
I love that music and music teaching was his main gig and Astronomy (via optics) was just a hobby that got out of hand…. Also his sister who was a singer and made some discoveries too.
the fairest thing to say about piece is that is it’s not really my sort of thing… without wanting to get into the weeds of whether contemporary concert works are actually on a par with say, Byrd - which I think may be impossible to answer because modern concert composers have very little in common with classical composers of earlier times for various reasons. It’s apples and oranges.To take just one example, 'Ars Magna Lucis et Umbrae' from DARK MATTER, I quote from his CD liner-notes:
... and so on. Listen out for an awesome performance by Carl Rosman singing and playing contrabass clarinet -
For instance Hershel’s music is completely generic and that composer you posted clearly has his own musical language that he’s developed. I would expect his output to relatively small compared to a pro composer of c18 and so on….
I would say I usually find this type of scientific tie in/inspiration thing a bit laboured in the arts… which is of course totally subjective.
Probably the most successful for me of the hyper modernist scientific types was the spectral movement. But this music is not human. It’s some music of the spheres shit.
that said I was toying with the idea of doing an album based on extragalactic astronomy. So I might be a hypocrite.
-
Fair enough. TBH this particular piece/movement is at the harsher end even of other movements from DARK MATTER. I love it but I've been listening to it since it was released in 2012, and I thought its concepts were particularly interesting and science-y... Originally Posted by Christian Miller
And yeah, I've found modernist, particularly what you could call 'high modernist' music/composers or at least some, had some pretty interesting extra-musical sources of inspiration e.g. Stockhausen & Xenakis, the latter being told by Messiaen IIRC to take advantage of his training in architecture and to do that in his music, so to speak...
-
Not in my experience (mostly in the Netherlands), at least not the getting paid part, nor the part about faith (which would be either inexistant or in accordance with the sunday morning ritual). Originally Posted by Christian Miller
I was talking about composers, but yes, I think it’s the same the world over… Originally Posted by DawgBone
Been there, done that, BTW, for quite a few years - as a way to gain experience, play nice music (usually Bach cantatas) and maybe to be able to say years later that I accompanied the likes of Peter Kooy and Monica Frimmer
Before getting onto the AGF I was (blissfully) unaware there are people get up on sunday mornings to (I presume) accompany contempary church music and flocks of (presumably) untrained singers, beyond organists and choir directors.
(I was ever more blissfully unaware of people who'd evoke religious concepts in public conversations about unrelated subjects in ways that suggests they actually really believe in them.)
-
yes I think maybe Dawg had more in mind ‘worship music’ which I gather is a thing stateside. I think it’s more of a CCM vibe, which is to say pop/rock style? Originally Posted by RJVB
Not in my experience (mostly in the Netherlands), at least not the getting paid part, nor the part about faith (which would be either inexistant or in accordance with the sunday morning ritual).
Been there, done that, BTW, for quite a few years - as a way to gain experience, play nice music (usually Bach cantatas) and maybe to be able to say years later that I accompanied the likes of Peter Kooy and Monica Frimmer
Before getting onto the AGF I was (blissfully) unaware there are people get up on sunday mornings to (I presume) accompany contempary church music and flocks of (presumably) untrained singers, beyond organists and choir directors.
(I was ever more blissfully unaware of people who'd evoke religious concepts in public conversations about unrelated subjects in ways that suggests they actually really believe in them.)
Its not Bach.
But the chance to play with a killing gospel rhythm section every Sunday… I think a lot of people would do that money and god nonwithstanding
I once told a student who was struggling with his time to ‘get religion’. I was half joking but by the next lesson he’d been playing every Sunday with a church band and his feel had noticeably improved.
Recommandations for Hollowbodies for $600 and under?
Today, 05:20 AM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos