Django Reinhardt vs Charlie Christian

**mrcee** · 08-30-2017, 09:28 PM

**mrcee** · 08-31-2017, 08:08 AM

There's at least one other thing on youtube of Django playing what sounds like an acoustic Maccaferri with Ellington so that would debunk the myth that he came empty handed. But it's from an album called "Echoes of France" with material from Feb 1946 to July 1947 (which does cover the time he was in the States) but it's possible the following was cut in France. There's another youtube side of Tiger Rag credited to Django with Ellington but it's clearly not either of them so who knows.

This is nice. Apparently on the Gibson.

**princeplanet** · 08-31-2017, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by fasstrack

Apples and oranges, man.

And again, what's the point? Just dig and appreciate...

Aw, c'mon man.... we're not in high school here arguing who's the best pitcher or punter or whatever. It's obvious everyone is sharing their preference. And I reckon it's not only OK to have preferences for some things over others, but it makes us more interesting, to ourselves as well as to others. Think about it, if you had a friend who never wanted to pick sides in any argument, or debate about anything ("shucks, I don't wanna take sides, everyones wonderful in their own way") - good grief, how boring...

I like people with enough confidence in their personality to admit to all their likes and dislikes. It's not their judgement that is the problem, it's the judging of people who dare to share honest opinions (without being obviously offensive) that is the problem for me! Vive le difference, an' all that guff.

Political Correctness is so 2008....

**EGad** · 08-31-2017, 09:40 AM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Aw, c'mon man.... we're not in high school here arguing who's the best pitcher or punter or whatever. It's obvious everyone is sharing their preference. And I reckon it's not only OK to have preferences for some things over others, but it makes us more interesting, to ourselves as well as to others. Think about it, if you had a friend who never wanted to pick sides in any argument, or debate about anything ("shucks, I don't wanna take sides, everyones wonderful in their own way") - good grief, how boring...

I like people with enough confidence in their personality to admit to all their likes and dislikes. It's not their judgement that is the problem, it's the judging of people who dare to share honest opinions (without being obviously offensive) that is the problem for me! Vive le difference, an' all that guff.

Political Correctness is so 2008....

Please clarify who is stating a preference and who is making a judgement about others.

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**mrcee** · 08-31-2017, 09:48 AM

Django and Duke Ellington | Gypsy Jazz UK

**destinytot** · 08-31-2017, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by mrcee

Django and Duke Ellington | Gypsy Jazz UK

I nearly choked on reading the opening lines (sipping gazpacho as I was at the time):
"During September 1946, Django Reinhardt was on tour in Switzerland; he lost most of his earnings in the Swiss Casinos but had some good news while in Zurich from a British Representative of the William Morris Agency. Duke Ellington had sent an invitation for Django to join him on tour in America."

**mrcee** · 08-31-2017, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by destinytot

I nearly choked on reading the opening lines (sipping gazpacho as I was at the time):
"During September 1946, Django Reinhardt was on tour in Switzerland; he lost most of his earnings in the Swiss Casinos but had some good news while in Zurich from a British Representative of the William Morris Agency. Duke Ellington had sent an invitation for Django to join him on tour in America."

I hope you were wearing a red shirt.

**jameslovestal** · 08-31-2017, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by EGad

Please clarify who is stating a preference and who is making a judgement about others.

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If one looks at who someone replied too when the 'quote' feature is used, one can see the 'who' one is referring in their reply.

Note that to me princeplanet had some solid points (and similar ones were made in the Green vs. Wes thread);

The main points being;

These comparisons are only for 'fun' (by 'fun' I mean they don't have any actual impact to the people being discussed like say we were part of the Motion Picture Academy and discussing who we were going to vote for, for Best-Actor).

It is A-OK to criticize; Yea, people have been advised NOT to do so and to me that is silly when the topic is a comparison. Ok, I feel people should do so with tact and they should be specific (e.g. saying 'that cat is a hack' should be avoided), but we are adults and this is a forum to exchanged our POV.

One doesn't have to be a better guitar player than the master they are criticizing: yea, this point was made by someone that appeared to not wish to see anything negative and I found it odd;

Now I understand there are people that wish to avoid these comparisons. While I contributed to the discussions I did NOT 'vote' since I find the tallying of votes 'silly' but I did find the discussion about the various styles and approaches used by the 'masters' of jazz guitar interesting and sometimes my preconceived notions are found to be misguided; e.g. when someone post a video and I see that a guitar player that I believe was 'limited' in a certain area really wasn't. What was limited was my knowledge of that guitar player!

**FZ2017** · 08-31-2017, 03:27 PM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

I choose Rib eye, with the apple sauce... I have no problem with these threads that ask for our opinions and preferences, I learn a lot, not only about all you guys and your preferences, but about my own! It's fun to dig deep, explore and ultimately express what we like and why. It simply has to come down to this for me: who do I listen more to? Like with piano players, I know I listen way more to Bill Evans than say, Art Tatum, but I know that every time I listen to Tatum I am completely overwhelmed with feelings of how he must be the greatest pianist of all time (jazz or otherwise!).

So likewise with these 2 we are discussing. CC resonates more and agrees with my daily moods mores than does DR, however, that is slowly changing as I listen more to Django's electric years. I just wish CC was around in DR's last years to hear how he was working up his own merging of Swing, Gypsy and Bop. Django was just so damn exciting, and Wes and GB are the only 2 other guitar players that generate those levels of excitement, for me at least. And yeah, it's easy to be "exciting" on guitar if you wanna bring up Hendrix, Van Halen etc... but it's not quite so easy without distortion or effects now is it? It get's down to technique, style and most importantly attitude.

Same goes for other instruments. Saw Chris Potter a coupla years back and he was mind numbingly proficient. Exciting for the first minute, then no real surprises. Went home that night and listened to Dexter Gordon and felt so much more excited by it, despite it being far simpler music. The only way to surpass that is to have exciting sound/technique, and exciting note choice/ideas. So yeah, Bird, Cannon, Coltrane, Brecker etc ....

What about Bud Powell? Do you listen more to Powell or Tatum. And Bud Powell or Bill Evans?

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**christianm77** · 09-01-2017, 06:58 AM

I thought Chris Potter was great when I saw him. I never saw Brecker or Dexter Gordon live tho so I have no basis of comparison.

**FZ2017** · 09-01-2017, 07:43 AM

You guys are probably going to jump down my throat for this but here goes. I wonder if DR or CC ever tried /and or had a junk habit? Or in other words I wonder what there vices were? Someone mentioned him gambling away his earnings before coming to the States!

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**grahambop** · 09-01-2017, 08:57 AM

Originally Posted by FZ2017

You guys are probably going to jump down my throat for this but here goes. I wonder if DR or CC ever tried /and or had a junk habit? Or in other words I wonder what there vices were? Someone mentioned him gambling away his earnings before coming to the States!

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Django used to go fishing much too often.

**princeplanet** · 09-01-2017, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by FZ2017

You guys are probably going to jump down my throat for this but here goes. I wonder if DR or CC ever tried /and or had a junk habit? Or in other words I wonder what there vices were? Someone mentioned him gambling away his earnings before coming to the States!

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CC was a pot head, just like Louis Armstrong and so many others. Didn't seem to do them any harm, unless you think it had something to do with contracting tuberculosis ...

**princeplanet** · 09-01-2017, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by FZ2017

What about Bud Powell? Do you listen more to Powell or Tatum. And Bud Powell or Bill Evans?

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Well, you can't say you love Bop piano without having dug Powell. A lot to like there, and still learning to appreciate what his left hand was doing...

**princeplanet** · 09-01-2017, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

I thought Chris Potter was great when I saw him. I never saw Brecker or Dexter Gordon live tho so I have no basis of comparison.

Sure, his shows are probably very varied depending who is playing with and what the gig is. I guess my point is - and you may think it belaboured as I do like to go on about it - that I seem to prefer players with personality and attitude. It's the last vestige from my punk rock past...

**FZ2017** · 09-01-2017, 12:56 PM

Is it true Django was illiterate/couldn't read at least not well?

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**FZ2017** · 09-01-2017, 01:05 PM

I guess Skag wasn't really on the scene in CC's day. Interesting that Django being a gypsy and all wasn't introduced to drugs at all.

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**destinytot** · 09-01-2017, 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by FZ2017

Is it true Django was illiterate/couldn't read at least not well?

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How's your French?
Django Reinhardt vs Charlie Christian-djangodukeletter-gif

(from Django and Duke Ellington | Gypsy Jazz UK )

**FZ2017** · 09-01-2017, 01:23 PM

I can make out musician and maybe a couple other words haha.

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**destinytot** · 09-01-2017, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by FZ2017

I can make out musician and maybe a couple other words haha.

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The most telling error in the text is three instances of 'sais' instead of 'c'est'.

**princeplanet** · 09-01-2017, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by FZ2017

I guess Skag wasn't really on the scene in CC's day. Interesting that Django being a gypsy and all wasn't introduced to drugs at all.

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Not sure, but Heroin came on the scene after WWII and returning serviceman addicted to pain killing drugs (morphine etc) may have had something to do with musicians being exposed to opioids for the first time...

**FZ2017** · 09-01-2017, 02:31 PM

Yeah after the first world war it was so widespread amongst soldiers that they called it the soldier's disease/sickness.

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**FZ2017** · 09-01-2017, 02:35 PM

I really dig Django but like most of y'all said I dig more for listening than playing his style. Plus if I'm going to get another guitar it's going to be an archtop, classical, Les Paul, Stratocaster, acoustic Gibson, and another Martin D28 dreadnought before a Manouche guitar!

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**princeplanet** · 09-01-2017, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by jameslovestal

.... another guitar player that I found exciting (and I saw him live many times), is Barney Kessell; Yea, I understand that he could get sloppy but he also took major risks. But what I love about his playing is that it is interesting; how he slurs notes, uses block chords etc...

Oh yeah, for me and my jazz mates, we look for risk taking in our fave players, local or otherwise. To prove that you take risks, you make make the occasional flub, and we like that. Of course, the way that great players recover from flubs is often very cool as well...