Django Reinhardt vs Charlie Christian

[Rob MacKillop]

Not gonna convince me on the banjo, man.

(But I do kinda want a plectrum banjo)

I have one for sale! A beautiful Deering Eagle II Plectrum.

[TOMMO]

i actually meant i wouldn't mind haha

lol!

[joe2758]

I have one for sale! A beautiful Deering Eagle II Plectrum.

nice playing! would I be able to get a good Grant Green tone with the right after market pickup/amp combo?

[destinytot]

I have one for sale! A beautiful Deering Eagle II Plectrum.

Magnificent. Thank you. (I've listened through twice already - now I'm going to listen again.)

[destinytot]

Django is so much more than the 'gypsy jazz' stereotype of his work. As a player in bands inspired by Django's, I kind of hate the term gypsy jazz.... but it is a convenient marketing label. Like Salsa.

(String band jazz wasn't just a French/Manouche thing either.... Musicians from all backgrounds were playing this music. I don't think Lang/Venuti were the first, let alone Django/Grappelli)

In my experience musicians from the actual Manouche/Romani tradition are much more open minded and just up for playing than the self defined 'gypsy jazz' guitarists.... And of course they eat everyone for breakfast in terms of sheer ability on their instruments!

Anyway.... In fact I personally prefer the American swing feel in jazz ... Django had great feel, but it was coming from a different place. But wow, what a virtuoso. I mean every time I hear him play it's jaw dropping.

Charlie Christian is for me the first modern jazz guitarist and as a result he is super important to me as that is pretty much the tradition I'm in. I am sad that people (non guitarists) seem less familiar with Charlie Christian than Django. They are equally great. CC probably invented rock guitar as well into the deal ;-)

But I give a lot of respect to the older guys ... Eddie Lang, Carl Kress, Dick McDonough, Allan Reuss, Lonnie Johnson, esp. Teddy Bunn...

Great post, man.

Django's elegance throughout the saddest times leaves me in bewildered awe and melancholia. CC makes it abundantly clear to me that the Creator does, indeed, have a master plan.

By kind favour of KirkP:

[wintermoon]

unfortunately I OD'ed on Django back in the day, now I can barely listen to a tune, just burned out on it.
that said, he was a virtuoso of epic proportions.

and I don't know if I'm buying that Christian was surpassed in skill.
styles and music evolved but that doesn't affect one's skill level.
if you listen to the live Mintons sessions for example I don't know who surpassed that level of playing.
maybe guys play faster but not necessarily better.
I wonder if Christian had lived what he'd have done, his recording career lasted maybe what, 3 years?

[acornet]

[fasstrack]

Geez. What is the POINT of these threads?

Why not start one called 'applesauce vs. jello'?

[Thumpalumpacus]

Would you mind if I'd throw T.Bone Walker into the mix here?

Tommy with the save! T-Bone laid down the basics, and it took us bone-headed rockers to dumb it down.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Your post is spot on. The notion that Django was a "Gypsy Jazz" guitarist is not correct. Yes, he was a Gypsy and he played jazz, but he was just following the Lang/Venuti format to some degree. After hearing Goodman. he dropped the violin in favor of clarinet and moved his music to a way more modern place.

What is unique in post CC jazz is that Django continued to use an acoustic guitar as opposed to an electric (he did eventually amplify his acoustic guitar, but he never made the switch to an electric archtop). He also preferred the flat 4 rhythm (though he eventually abandoned "La Pompe" in favor of a Freddy Green style).

Django is a hero to his people (the Gypsies of Western Europe) and they have stuck to his sound and style, thus creating "Gypsy Jazz". Most are stuck in his 1930's style with violin and "La Pompe", but others like Bireli Lagrene use reeds and a more "Post war" Django style.

I have chosen to play Gypsy jazz with a modern American sound. I mostly use an electric archtop (the Gibson ES-175 is my weapon of choice) and mostly play with a reeds player (I like the clarinet way more than violin). My lines and phrasing are way more rooted in CC than Django, though I have studied Django and Gypsy picking and I do have a Selmer style guitar. I play what I hear and coming from the CC tradition and not the Django tradition, my style will always be more CC than Django. If I wanted to, I could probably change that, but why reinvent the wheel?

Deep down, I feel CC and Django are equals. Both were trailblazers in the history of jazz guitar. I would give a slight nod to Django if I had to make a choice as I think he was more developed (while both men left us too fast, CC truly had too little time to reach his full potential). Deep down I feel that Wes and JP are equals, but Wes' melodicism excites me more than JP's bop virtuosity does (and I adore JP's playing, make no mistake about that) so I would give a slight nod to Wes.

The truth is, I am grateful for all of the great jazz guitarists on whose shoulders I stand.

Very well-spoken indeed, Swing. It's like choosing between ribeye and sirloin.

[EGad]

Little known fact, the banjo was invented by Django's lesser known brother, Bjango so I am totally getting this.

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[EGad]

I am also following with interest the various steak references - T-bone, ribeye etc. This is the first time a thread ever made me hungry.

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[destinytot]

I am also following with interest the various steak references - T-bone, ribeye etc. This is the first time a thread ever made me hungry.

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Food fight - slugging it out with steaks: "In the red corner, rumbling rhinoceros ribeye..."

[princeplanet]

I choose Rib eye, with the apple sauce... I have no problem with these threads that ask for our opinions and preferences, I learn a lot, not only about all you guys and your preferences, but about my own! It's fun to dig deep, explore and ultimately express what we like and why. It simply has to come down to this for me: who do I listen more to? Like with piano players, I know I listen way more to Bill Evans than say, Art Tatum, but I know that every time I listen to Tatum I am completely overwhelmed with feelings of how he must be the greatest pianist of all time (jazz or otherwise!).

So likewise with these 2 we are discussing. CC resonates more and agrees with my daily moods mores than does DR, however, that is slowly changing as I listen more to Django's electric years. I just wish CC was around in DR's last years to hear how he was working up his own merging of Swing, Gypsy and Bop. Django was just so damn exciting, and Wes and GB are the only 2 other guitar players that generate those levels of excitement, for me at least. And yeah, it's easy to be "exciting" on guitar if you wanna bring up Hendrix, Van Halen etc... but it's not quite so easy without distortion or effects now is it? It get's down to technique, style and most importantly attitude.

Same goes for other instruments. Saw Chris Potter a coupla years back and he was mind numbingly proficient. Exciting for the first minute, then no real surprises. Went home that night and listened to Dexter Gordon and felt so much more excited by it, despite it being far simpler music. The only way to surpass that is to have exciting sound/technique, and exciting note choice/ideas. So yeah, Bird, Cannon, Coltrane, Brecker etc ....

[fasstrack]

So likewise with these 2 we are discussing. CC resonates more and agrees with my daily moods mores than does DR, however, that is slowly changing as I listen more to Django's electric years. I just wish CC was around in DR's last years to hear how he was working up his own merging of Swing, Gypsy and Bop. Django was just so damn exciting ...

Apples and oranges, man.

And again, what's the point? Just dig and appreciate...

[jameslovestal]

I choose Rib eye, with the apple sauce... I have no problem with these threads that ask for our opinions and preferences, I learn a lot, not only about all you guys and your preferences, but about my own! It's fun to dig deep, explore and ultimately express what we like and why. It simply has to come down to this for me: who do I listen more to? Like with piano players, I know I listen way more to Bill Evans than say, Art Tatum, but I know that every time I listen to Tatum I am completely overwhelmed with feelings of how he must be the greatest pianist of all time (jazz or otherwise!).

So likewise with these 2 we are discussing. CC resonates more and agrees with my daily moods mores than does DR, however, that is slowly changing as I listen more to Django's electric years. I just wish CC was around in DR's last years to hear how he was working up his own merging of Swing, Gypsy and Bop. Django was just so damn exciting, and Wes and GB are the only 2 other guitar players that generate those levels of excitement, for me at least. And yeah, it's easy to be "exciting" on guitar if you wanna bring up Hendrix, Van Halen etc... but it's not quite so easy without distortion or effects now is it? It get's down to technique, style and most importantly attitude.

Same goes for other instruments. Saw Chris Potter a coupla years back and he was mind numbingly proficient. Exciting for the first minute, then no real surprises. Went home that night and listened to Dexter Gordon and felt so much more excited by it, despite it being far simpler music. The only way to surpass that is to have exciting sound/technique, and exciting note choice/ideas. So yeah, Bird, Cannon, Coltrane, Brecker etc ....

Great post! I really like the 'so dam exciting' and 'exciting note choice/ideas' comments; another guitar player that I found exciting (and I saw him live many times), is Barney Kessell; Yea, I understand that he could get sloppy but he also took major risks. But what I love about his playing is that it is interesting; how he slurs notes, uses block chords etc...

I have had many debates with my friends related to Barney and Joe Pass; Yea, I understand the POV that no-one can touch Pass as it relates to a guitar master, but often I find Barney a little more interesting to listen too, so called flaws and all. (but the next day I'll watch a video like the one with Roy Clark and Joe Pass and say to myself, no one beats Joe!).

[mrcee]

Your post is spot on. The notion that Django was a "Gypsy Jazz" guitarist is not correct. Yes, he was a Gypsy and he played jazz, but he was just following the Lang/Venuti format to some degree. After hearing Goodman. he dropped the violin in favor of clarinet and moved his music to a way more modern place.

What is unique in post CC jazz is that Django continued to use an acoustic guitar as opposed to an electric (he did eventually amplify his acoustic guitar, but he never made the switch to an electric archtop). He also preferred the flat 4 rhythm (though he eventually abandoned "La Pompe" in favor of a Freddy Green style).

Django is a hero to his people (the Gypsies of Western Europe) and they have stuck to his sound and style, thus creating "Gypsy Jazz". Most are stuck in his 1930's style with violin and "La Pompe", but others like Bireli Lagrene use reeds and a more "Post war" Django style.

I have chosen to play Gypsy jazz with a modern American sound. I mostly use an electric archtop (the Gibson ES-175 is my weapon of choice) and mostly play with a reeds player (I like the clarinet way more than violin). My lines and phrasing are way more rooted in CC than Django, though I have studied Django and Gypsy picking and I do have a Selmer style guitar. I play what I hear and coming from the CC tradition and not the Django tradition, my style will always be more CC than Django. If I wanted to, I could probably change that, but why reinvent the wheel?

Deep down, I feel CC and Django are equals. Both were trailblazers in the history of jazz guitar. I would give a slight nod to Django if I had to make a choice as I think he was more developed (while both men left us too fast, CC truly had too little time to reach his full potential). Deep down I feel that Wes and JP are equals, but Wes' melodicism excites me more than JP's bop virtuosity does (and I adore JP's playing, make no mistake about that) so I would give a slight nod to Wes.

The truth is, I am grateful for all of the great jazz guitarists on whose shoulders I stand.

Django never actually made a permanent switch to electric archtop but he did play one for a while in the post war 40s and I believe recorded with it in France and possibly with Ellington. When he came to the US to play with Ellington he expected to have makers jump at the opportunity to furnish him with complimentary guitars. That didn't happen but he did get an electric Gibson which he brought back to Europe. He was never completely comfortable with the Gibson but did become an electric convert and eventually put a PU on his acoustic.

[destinytot]

When he came to the US to play with Ellington he expected to have makers jump at the opportunity to furnish him with complimentary guitars.

That, right there... love Django.

[neatomic]

when django came stateside..in nyc he was picked up by johnny smith who took him to hook up with les paul!!!


django, johnny and les...can you imagine???


the mythology that django came stateside empty handed waiting for endorsements is bunk...he was a simple guy from a rom caravan type existence being thrown on a plane to come to the united states..he must have been completely overwhelmed...

but stateside, he had the admiration of players who knew just how great he really was...harry volpe, a great but obscure figure in guitar history...johnny smith hung with him immediately in nyc...les paul, who loved django and eventually wound up paying for djangos funeral

doesn't get much heavier

the respect artists have for other great artists has always been there..a part of the history of art



cheers

[christianm77]

Les was a badass single note soloist on acoustic guitar very influenced by Django which made him pretty unique in the states AFAIK.

The Django school of playing was pretty different from the American pre Charlie school. The US players were coming out of the banjo or the blues mostly until CC came along (and CC sounds pretty much in the bluesy tradition of teddy bunn when you hear him play acoustic.)

I can completely imagine Djangos playing wasn't widely known in the US

[destinytot]

the mythology that django came stateside empty handed waiting for endorsements is bunk...he was a simple guy from a rom caravan type existence being thrown on a plane to come to the united states..he must have been completely overwhelmed...

Mythology is just that - 'mythology'. And mythology matters - especially in connection to Art ('a lie that brings us closer to the truth', as Picasso put it).

I'm not sure 'a simple guy from a rom caravan type existence' is fair, but 'empty handed waiting for endorsements' and 'completely overwhelmed' definitely aren't mutually exclusive.

[FZ2017]

Both guitarists are mentioned as geniuses, and I feel like Django may have been more of a virtuoso in terms of dazzling technique. But to me CC style and approach works better for all things jazz: swing or bebop, jump blues, even rockabilly. I feel like when playing in a band with horns and a rhythm section, I'd rather use CC licks and ideas than Django's. Gypsy jazz in general is just a thing in itself, doesn't evolve or stretches out IMO.

So yeah, my vote goes to CC for how I can adopt it to my own style. But man, I do LOVE listening to Django's music!

Imagine if he had all his limbs! Might've become the best ever hands down! Haha even though saying one virtuoso is better than another is kinda redundant. People sometimes get art confused with Athletics.

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[mrcee]

I don't think anyone knows what Django brought with him when he came to the States or how he got the Gibson and it doesn't matter but he certainly didn't come to busk. And he obviously hung out with a lot of great musicians. I'd be curious to know about his time with Ellington.

[Stevebol]

Imagine if he had all his limbs! Might've become the best ever hands down! Haha even though saying one virtuoso is better than another is kinda redundant. People sometimes get art confused with Athletics.

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It's a sign of the times. In my dreams and in cyber-space I'm quite the athlete.

[gator811]

I cant compare these two purely on the grounds of my own experience. I went out and bought a Django record the second I read that Joe Pass talked about him in such glowing terms when I was about 17 back in NZ in the 70's. From there it was easy to find other Django recordings and there were already quasi manouche bands cropping up around the place.
But it was from the same interview with JP that I learned about Charlie Christian - and it took ages for me to find a copy of the "Swing to Bop" at Mintons with a few cuts of Charlie playing - and the recording quality was rough!
The full collection of his stuff with Goodman etc took me some time to find over the following years and only because I moved O/S - and it was a revelation but for some years the only reason I knew that Charlie was so great and so influential is because Joe and Wes said he was!