Django Reinhardt vs Charlie Christian

**wintermoon** · 09-10-2020, 08:20 PM

Originally Posted by Phil59

Well, here's the original quote you found so offensive: "I think Django is clearly better, more melodic, better chops, more creative. Does Charlie swing better? Absolutely. My two favorite guitarists." Notice the word THINK??? Of course, it's an opinion. Obviously. Not an "absolute fact." This thread was about observation, experience and opinion among knowledgeable and/or interested people. It was an interesting, enjoyable discussion about two greats--until you hijacked it and ruined it.

You're absolutely right sir, 'I think Django is clearly better' in this case is an opinion, even if it's a juvenile thing to say, my bad. I'd be happy to delete my posts to unruin the thread for you if you like.

**Phil59** · 09-10-2020, 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by wintermoon

You're absolutely right sir, 'I think Django is clearly better' in this case is an opinion, even if it's a juvenile thing to say, my bad. I'd be happy to delete my posts to unruin the thread for you if you like.

No, let the chips fall where they may and let's move on. I'm sure there are many musical/jazz guitar topics on which we can agree.

**wintermoon** · 09-10-2020, 08:35 PM

Now that's anything but a juvenile response, my bad, carry on fellas, sorry.

**Phil59** · 09-10-2020, 09:34 PM

I am interested in any insights you might have on how CC and Django are similar. Apparently Django was influenced by Louis Armstrong early via records he got in France, and American bebop late partly because of his trip to the U.S. I am no expert, particularly about music theory. So please indulge me.

Both used arpeggios a lot. Django more so. I think Charlie was more blues-based, but Django recorded numerous blues tunes in which it seems to me that he used the available notes differently than Americans did. What do you think?

**christianm77** · 09-11-2020, 03:56 AM

Django used all sorts of shit. He played a lot scales too. Less blues, but he could be bluesy.

Both were extremely fond of the m6 on dominant sub; so Dm6 on G7.

Where they differ is that CC would use this even in a minor key - you can hear this in I Found a New Baby for instance. So, Em6 on A7 going to Dm6. Angular!

Django would be more like to opt for a diminished or a Neapolitan substitute in this case. Much more romantic/classical.

Charlie comes out of Lester young and 8th notes that look forward to bebop. (Earlier) Django comes out of Louis and more phrased on quarter notes with syncopation.

Charlie’s arpeggio shapes are little more based on chord grips such as drop 2s, going across the strings rather than the more violin/clarinet style arpeggios favoured by Django

Charlie was really fond of the natural 6th on natural minor - also a trademark of the Basie sound. I feel Django actually plays this less even though it is thought a ‘gypsy jazz’ sound; but I have not obviously checked out all the Django and he certainly used this sound.

So Charlie Christian = more dorian and melodic minor and Django = more harmonic minor; but that’s a simplification. You can hear Django using both. But Django REALLY liked the b6 in both major and minor. It’s a very romantic note.

In major (I’d have to check) it feels like Django like maj7 on maj (as did Louis) while Charlie Christian favours a major blues tonality like Lester.

**Phil59** · 09-11-2020, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

I like the limitations. I find it extraordinary with about 10 licks (thereabouts) he can do this.

And that teaches us something REALLY deep about improv that no theory books or lick books can. It's probably my favourite guitar solo. The time is INSANE, the swing, the form, the phrasing, the shape of it, the way he makes so much out of so little, the tension, the release the grrrrrr!!!!!!

Are there recordings of Django spinning out this kind of thing, ratcheting up the tension for chorus after chorus? I certainly haven't listened to all the Django.

I honestly feel like having to choose between them is killing part of my soul haha

The answer to Django or Charlie is of course, YES.

No, Django didn't do anything like that. His improv style was much different.

**Phil59** · 09-11-2020, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Django used all sorts of shit. He played a lot scales too. Less blues, but he could be bluesy.

Both were extremely fond of the m6 on dominant sub; so Dm6 on G7.

Where they differ is that CC would use this even in a minor key - you can hear this in I Found a New Baby for instance. So, Em6 on A7 going to Dm6. Angular!

Django would be more like to opt for a diminished or a Neapolitan substitute in this case. Much more romantic/classical.

Charlie comes out of Lester young and 8th notes that look forward to bebop. (Earlier) Django comes out of Louis and more phrased on quarter notes with syncopation.

Charlie’s arpeggio shapes are little more based on chord grips such as drop 2s, going across the strings rather than the more violin/clarinet style arpeggios favoured by Django

Charlie was really fond of the natural 6th on natural minor - also a trademark of the Basie sound. I feel Django actually plays this less even though it is thought a ‘gypsy jazz’ sound; but I have not obviously checked out all the Django and he certainly used this sound.

So Charlie Christian = more dorian and melodic minor and Django = more harmonic minor; but that’s a simplification. You can hear Django using both. But Django REALLY liked the b6 in both major and minor. It’s a very romantic note.

In major (I’d have to check) it feels like Django like maj7 on maj (as did Louis) while Charlie Christian favours a major blues tonality like Lester.

Thanks, Christian. A lot of interesting stuff there to check out! No surprise that Lester Young is my favorite sax player. His use of "worry notes" shows up a lot in Charlie's playing. In Django music as I am learning it, it's diminished stuff all day long. Major 7 chords, however, are hardly ever used.

It would be interesting to see how these two greats played the same tunes, such as "I Found a New Baby," "Rose Room" and "Sheik of Araby."

**christianm77** · 09-11-2020, 10:42 AM

Go!

**Phil59** · 09-11-2020, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Go!

Thanks! But it would take me forever. I play both versions...in my own student way. But I don't think about the theory, just the melody and rhythm differences. And of course, the guitars sound totally different. What I should do is transpose one version to the other's key. Which means much of the fingering will change, right?

**christianm77** · 09-11-2020, 01:49 PM

Try to sing the solos first would be my advice (do it in the privacy of your own practice room obv, it’s not about being a singer, just getting to know the music away from the instrument.)

Aside from his solo Django gives a masterclass on playing a variation on the melody

**Phil59** · 09-11-2020, 11:05 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Try to sing the solos first would be my advice (do it in the privacy of your own practice room obv, it’s not about being a singer, just getting to know the music away from the instrument.)

Aside from his solo Django gives a masterclass on playing a variation on the melody

My singing aside, I played both versions several times in the same key (F). Charlie's solo stuck much more to the original tune. Django really took off, starting with his intro and version of the melody, then his improvs. I don't want to (dare not) present this as a contest. I like Charlie's version a lot. But Django's version was much more interesting and appealing to me. And much harder to play, if that means anything. Probably not. And it was recorded two years before Charlie's version, which he had learned a long time before, according to accounts. Of course, it's just one tune.

**christianm77** · 09-12-2020, 07:29 AM

Originally Posted by Phil59

My singing aside, I played both versions several times in the same key (F). Charlie's solo stuck much more to the original tune. Django really took off, starting with his intro and version of the melody, then his improvs. I don't want to (dare not) present this as a contest. I like Charlie's version a lot. But Django's version was much more interesting and appealing to me. And much harder to play, if that means anything. Probably not. And it was recorded two years before Charlie's version, which he had learned a long time before, according to accounts. Of course, it's just one tune.

This is becoming a bit of theme with me in the past few days haha - there is no sound basis for aesthetic comparison other than personal taste. This (demonstrable) philosophical truth appears to be oddly controversial to a lot of people.

One can certainly make educated observations about how the two players are similar and how they differ....

(some people actually thing more complex/more virtuoso = better. Bill Evans put the case against this particularly well, but that’s another post. This is a world where Jacob Collier is considered a ‘genius’ because of his raw ability.)

Anyway, that’s great. Did you learn the solos by ear?

**Phil59** · 09-12-2020, 09:39 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

This is becoming a bit of theme with me in the past few days haha - there is no sound basis for aesthetic comparison other than personal taste. This (demonstrable) philosophical truth appears to be oddly controversial to a lot of people.

One can certainly make educated observations about how the two players are similar and how they differ....

(some people actually thing more complex/more virtuoso = better. Bill Evans put the case against this particularly well, but that’s another post. This is a world where Jacob Collier is considered a ‘genius’ because of his raw ability.)

Anyway, that’s great. Did you learn the solos by ear?

Yes, it is personal taste, opinion. Still, there are facts. Who is the better guitar player: Joe Satriani or Taylor Swift? (Although she evidently has been the inspiration for many more guitar purchases.) As far as complex/more virtuoso = better, no, I don't think that at all. For example, I can't think of a single prog rock group that I ever liked. And for a favorite guitar solo of mine, listen to Slim Harpo's "King Bee."

Finally, in answer to your question, you give me way too much credit by even asking it!!!

**christianm77** · 09-12-2020, 10:06 AM

Well I totally think you could say Django was the better guitar PLAYER... but better jazz guitarist? Well the jazz side of that is not unimportant...

Tey and learn at least a bit by ear. A single lick learned by ear is worth a hundred read solos, because there is so much nuance that cannot be written down. Perhaps you might gain a greater a appreciation for Charlie by doing this kind of deep listening.

**Phil59** · 09-12-2020, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Well I totally think you could say Django was the better guitar PLAYER... but better jazz guitarist? Well the jazz side of that is not unimportant...

Tey and learn at least a bit by ear. A single lick learned by ear is worth a hundred read solos, because there is so much nuance that cannot be written down. Perhaps you might gain a greater a appreciation for Charlie by doing this kind of deep listening.

Good point on learning by ear. I will start something today. As for my appreciation for Charlie, it is considerable. In fact, it is why I started to play guitar again a few years ago. And many of his solos indeed are very singable.