Django Reinhardt vs Charlie Christian

**princeplanet** · 08-28-2020, 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by AndyV

There's a poetry to the music of both Django and Wes that, in my opinion, transcends the guitar and reaches some some kind of sublime plane of universal musicality. Charlie Christian's playing both created a new genre and was the sublime example of an existing genre on the guitar, but his in terms of artistry, I don't find his music to be universal in the way that Wes and Django's strikes me.

That's a fair thing to say I think. CC definitely sounds more formulaic then the other 2 Jazz guitar geniuses you mention. But you must remember how old CC was, nearly every great player (any instrument) sounded more fomulaic in their early years...

**mhch** · 09-09-2020, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by mrcee

Django never actually made a permanent switch to electric archtop but he did play one for a while in the post war 40s and I believe recorded with it in France and possibly with Ellington. When he came to the US to play with Ellington he expected to have makers jump at the opportunity to furnish him with complimentary guitars. That didn't happen but he did get an electric Gibson which he brought back to Europe. He was never completely comfortable with the Gibson but did become an electric convert and eventually put a PU on his acoustic.

yes Django played an electric archtop, and in particular at in Carnegie Hall when invited by Duke Ellington to play , Django and Ellington alone on the same stage. Django didn't bring his guitar and was lent an electric archtop which he didn't like at all. In fact, he didn't like not only the guitar,but the event, and he didn't play that well this evening, and despite two sesssions were planned, only the first one was held. After that he and Duke toured a bit in the US, I think.

Anyway, Duke was in awe about Django's abilities, and that's why he invited him, very few had that great honor, which is awfully significant.

Django used to play musette when young, violin, accordion and banjo. When he heard Big Band records he got the idea of merging the musette sound with the swing rythm. A true innovator just because of that, in addition to his playing skills. Of course one can like or dislike this style ! But very few musicians can really say they brought something really new to jazz music, I'm sure you know those guys.

**AGM** · 09-09-2020, 03:08 PM

I admire both players.....but for me Django is the greatest. No one has played like him in terms of solo note playing and both his acoustic and 'electrified' playing are stunning in every way.

**Tom Karol** · 09-09-2020, 04:33 PM

"Competitions are for horses, not artists," Bela Bartok.

**2bornot2bop** · 09-09-2020, 06:53 PM

This is so subjective. Can’t we simply honor them both for their art and be done with it? I mean, I think each of them would prefer that.

**AndyV** · 09-10-2020, 11:40 AM

This is so subjective. Can’t we simply honor them both for their art and be done with it? I mean, I think each of them would prefer that.

Agreed. I don't dig competitive comparisons but when some artists are on a higher plane of artistry, I think it is fair to acknowledge that, with the understanding this is entirely a subjective call.

**christianm77** · 09-10-2020, 12:26 PM

If someone says they think Django is clearly better than Charlie Christian it mostly makes makes me wonder if they have a very developed appreciation for swing feel.

**christianm77** · 09-10-2020, 12:27 PM

Django is great BTW. Apples and oranges.

**Phil59** · 09-10-2020, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

If someone says they think Django is clearly better than Charlie Christian it mostly makes makes me wonder if they have a very developed appreciation for swing feel.

Huh? Yes, I think Django is clearly better, more melodic, better chops, more creative. Does Charlie swing better? Absolutely. My two favorite guitarists.

**wintermoon** · 09-10-2020, 12:44 PM

Comparing styles is fine.
Saying one is "better" is pretty dumb, silly, stupid, however you want to phrase it.

**Phil59** · 09-10-2020, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by wintermoon

Comparing styles is fine.
Saying one is "better" is pretty dumb, silly, stupid, however you want to phrase it.

I see I used the word "better." Why not? It's just an opinion. But basically we're just comparing styles. And I'm hardly saying CC was lousy. He was also great! But of course that's an opinion. (Also a fact!)

**christianm77** · 09-10-2020, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by Phil59

Huh? Yes, I think Django is clearly better, more melodic, better chops, more creative. Does Charlie swing better? Absolutely. My two favorite guitarists.

my thoughts exactly; although I think I would say Charlie is my favourite. Aside from his time/feel I love his ability to spin out a compelling solo for chorus after chorus out of really a rather limited bag makes him for me a more subtle and interesting artist.

OTOH Django is just inexhaustibly creative, so what can you say?

**wintermoon** · 09-10-2020, 01:15 PM

"Yes, I think Django is clearly better"

I guess you already forgot your own quote.

**Phil59** · 09-10-2020, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by wintermoon

"Yes, I think Django is clearly better"

I guess you already forgot your own quote.

Originally Posted by wintermoon
Comparing styles is fine.
Saying one is "better" is pretty dumb, silly, stupid, however you want to phrase it.

Yes, as you can see above, I edited the post accordingly to this before you kindly pointed it out:

I see I used the word "better." Why not? It's just an opinion. But basically we're just comparing styles. And I'm hardly saying CC was lousy. He was also great! But of course that's an opinion. (Also a fact!)

But I suppose I'm still "dumb, silly, stupid, however you want to phrase it"?

**wintermoon** · 09-10-2020, 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by Phil59

Originally Posted by wintermoon
Comparing styles is fine.
Saying one is "better" is pretty dumb, silly, stupid, however you want to phrase it.

Yes, as you can see above, I edited the post accordingly to this before you kindly pointed it out:

I see I used the word "better." Why not? It's just an opinion. But basically we're just comparing styles. And I'm hardly saying CC was lousy. He was also great! But of course that's an opinion. (Also a fact!)

But I suppose I'm still "dumb, silly, stupid, however you want to phrase it"?

No, not if you recognized that it was a silly remark. But nothing wrong w preferring someone over someone else. I'd rather listen to CC over Django, probably due to gypsy jazz overdose 35 yrs ago, I almost can't listen to it anymore. That and I just dig CC and his disciples more, especially Wes. (yeah, I know Wes was influenced by Django also)

**Phil59** · 09-10-2020, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by wintermoon

No, not if you recognized that it was a silly remark.

Well. no, I obviously don't. But I won't descend to your juvenile level of "dumb, silly, stupid."

**christianm77** · 09-10-2020, 05:19 PM

Oh god I'm not even going to get into my fractious and complicated relationship with Gypsy Jazz haha.

**christianm77** · 09-10-2020, 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by wintermoon

"Yes, I think Django is clearly better"

I guess you already forgot your own quote.

Odd, I think I misread Phil's comment. No idea why. Ah well, apples and oranges.

I do think players who prefer Django are probably less interested in the rhythmic side of it and more in the 'syntactic' elements (harmony, melody, note choices, and so on).

CC's harmony and melody vocabulary are really cool, but you can get that down easy - HOWEVER, have you noticed how most people who copied him in the 40s sounded a bit naff apart from Barney?

**Phil59** · 09-10-2020, 06:27 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Oh god I'm not even going to get into my fractious and complicated relationship with Gypsy Jazz haha.

You mean the DJ police, it's Django's way or the highway?

**wintermoon** · 09-10-2020, 06:28 PM

Originally Posted by Phil59

Well. no, I obviously don't. But I won't descend to your juvenile level of "dumb, silly, stupid."

ok then, how about this. anyone that would compare one legendary player to another by calling one 'clearly better' is juvenile as well as being dumb, stupid and silly. I'd think if you took a poll most would feel a comment like that is at the very least clueless.
btw, I didn't even see your initial 'clearly better' comment until after I posted how dumb, silly and stupid it would be.
but low and behold it was right there above my post.
you might want to try and remember what you typed two posts earlier before you speak in absolutes.

**Phil59** · 09-10-2020, 06:42 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Odd, I think I misread Phil's comment. No idea why. Ah well, apples and oranges.

I do think players who prefer Django are probably less interested in the rhythmic side of it and more in the 'syntactic' elements (harmony, melody, note choices, and so on).

CC's harmony and melody vocabulary are really cool, but you can get that down easy - HOWEVER, have you noticed how most people who copied him in the 40s sounded a bit naff apart from Barney?

I hope you really mean you read it correctly. But I totally agree with the rest of what you said. I resumed playing a few years ago because I wanted to focus on Charlie. But then I listened to more Django and gravitated toward that. I think it is much harder. I play both now, 90% of the time. To me, CC does one thing brilliantly. Django has a much greater range. At his best, he's the best, in my opinion. (Oh oh, there I go again, maybe the jazz police will come after me again.) At the same time, there is a fair amount of Django I don't like.

**christianm77** · 09-10-2020, 06:50 PM

I like the limitations. I find it extraordinary with about 10 licks (thereabouts) he can do this.

And that teaches us something REALLY deep about improv that no theory books or lick books can. It's probably my favourite guitar solo. The time is INSANE, the swing, the form, the phrasing, the shape of it, the way he makes so much out of so little, the tension, the release the grrrrrr!!!!!!

Are there recordings of Django spinning out this kind of thing, ratcheting up the tension for chorus after chorus? I certainly haven't listened to all the Django.

I honestly feel like having to choose between them is killing part of my soul haha

The answer to Django or Charlie is of course, YES.

**Phil59** · 09-10-2020, 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by wintermoon

ok then, how about this. anyone that would compare one legendary player to another by calling one 'clearly better' is juvenile as well as being dumb, stupid and silly. I'd think if you took a poll most would feel a comment like that is at the very least clueless.
btw, I didn't even see your initial 'clearly better' comment until after I posted how dumb, silly and stupid it would be.
but low and behold it was right there above my post.
you might want to try and remember what you typed two posts earlier before you speak in absolutes.

WOW!!! Again, I will not sink to your social media rant level except to say: As Abe Lincoln wisely said, "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." By the way, "better" is not an absolute.

**wintermoon** · 09-10-2020, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by Phil59

WOW!!! Again, I will not sink to your social media rant level except to say: As Abe Lincoln wisely said, "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." By the way, "better" is not an absolute.

all I'm saying is a comment like "clearly better" shouldn't be phrased as if it's an absolute fact, which is how most people that read it would likely take it. sure sounded that way to me when I read it. maybe you should have said I like X better, or something along those lines.

when I was a teenager I went to see the Great Guitars, Barney Kessel, Herb Ellis and Charlie Byrd.
on break a wide eyed me was speaking to Barney and I commented "you're my second favorite guitar player after Joe Pass" [open mouth, insert foot]
now that was an opinion, but it was certainly a juvenile, stupid and silly thing to say. thinking back on it later I couldn't believe I said it, but Mr Kessel was classy enough to not even comment on what the juvenile said

as for Mr. Lincoln, I agree, but you should have thought about that when you typed 'clearly better', dig?

**Phil59** · 09-10-2020, 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by wintermoon

all I'm saying is a comment like "clearly better" shouldn't be phrased as if it's an absolute fact, which is how most people that read it would likely take it. sure sounded that way to me when I read it. maybe you should have said I like X better, or something along those lines.?

Well, here's the original quote you found so offensive: "I think Django is clearly better, more melodic, better chops, more creative. Does Charlie swing better? Absolutely. My two favorite guitarists." Notice the word THINK??? Of course, it's an opinion. Obviously. Not an "absolute fact." This thread was about observation, experience and opinion among knowledgeable and/or interested people. It was an interesting, enjoyable discussion about two greats--until you hijacked it and ruined it.