Tommy Emmanuel & Matteo Mancuso: Sunny

[Christian Miller]

True it's not a simple academic system that if you do this one thing like keep a perfect triplet, you'll be swinging. But you can still explain the traits that improve and achieve swing. Rhythm isn't unexplainable.

It's worth pointing out there's a difference between empirically understanding something as it might be on a DAW, and being able to learn and teach it. I don't need to cite a scientific paper on the inequality of swing eighths to improve a students swing feel in a lesson. Neither do I need to change what I teach radically from person to person - there's certain things that will almost always help.

Again, almost everyone can benefit from hanging out with drummers more haha.

[jazzyfan]

Swing is a feel, not a count. You can make quarter notes swing, eighth notes swing, 16th notes swing, triplets swing, dotted 8ths swing, etc. Swing is not pedagogical. It's not counted out. Can't be academicized. Can't even really talk about it successfully on a web forum.

Swing is what makes jazz sexy, like it makes dancing sexy. It's the swing of the hip, not the step of the foot, that makes it work. It's the motion in the ocean, what makes your lover or your audience say "oh, yeah!" It's the opposite of uptight, it's attentively relaxed. Doesn't hurry, bides its time, makes its move. Swing is sinuous, graceful and a little bit dangerous. Play from the hips, baby. Hips don't lie (to borrow a phrase).

Unfalsifiable nonsense.

It's VERY simple. Swing is a triplet.
What is less simple is getting the triplet to sound smooth and relaxed and in time.

[pamosmusic]

Unfalsifiable nonsense.

It's VERY simple. Swing is a triplet.
What is less simple is getting the triplet to sound smooth and relaxed and in time.

Jazzyfan hath spoken

[Cunamara]

True it's not a simple academic system that if you do this one thing like keep a perfect triplet, you'll be swinging. But you can still explain the traits that improve and achieve swing. Rhythm isn't unexplainable.

It's demonstrable. It's learnable, perhaps more than it is teachable. But it is not readily explainable using our whole note, half note, quarter note, eighth note, 16th note, 32nd note, 64th note, triplets, etc. time scheme. The swing beat doesn't land exactly on any of those, and yet it doesn't not land on them either.

Check it out: Miles's solo on So What. A beautiful, gently swinging solo. The notes in the transcription seem accurate, but listen to how Miles swings some of those things through dynamics and massaging the note- tiny crescendos and decrescendos, little bends, a little staccato accent. All while being right on top of the count almost all the time. This is a masterpiece of expressive soloing and a wonderful demonstration of doing a whole lot with a minimum resources. The swing is what gives it that, but I would defy anyone to successfully notate that in western music.

Now, does Matteo* achieve that with his guitar playing? A little bit sometimes, mainly when playing cleanly. As pointed out above, when he starts playing with overdrive his feel changes with that. It becomes more rock and less jazz. But he's not trying to be a straight ahead player anyway, so he hasn't probably worked as much on it as many of us here have done.

* does anybody achieve that on guitar? There are few guitar players who are that expressive. We tend to be more like saxophonists than trumpeters due to the facility of playing scales on our instrument compared to having just three valves and a couple of lips. Duane Allman had some moments approaching this kind of expressiveness (he listened devotedly to KOB, so that this may be not a surprise). Allan Holdsworth had some of that expressiveness and sometimes so does John McLaughlin, typically when he's playing slower rather than blazing away. Or at least I hear it more easily when he's playing slower. But I don't really associate a swing groove with either Holdsworth or McLaughlin. Pete Bernstein, maybe?

[pamosmusic]

Yeah.

Upright bass players swing.

Wynton has said (I think in Ken Burns, can't remember) that he knows if you can swing or not when he hears your quarter note.

[jazzyfan]

* does anybody achieve that on guitar? There are few guitar players who are that expressive. We tend to be more like saxophonists than trumpeters due to the facility of playing scales on our instrument compared to having just three valves and a couple of lips. Duane Allman had some moments approaching this kind of expressiveness (he listened devotedly to KOB, so that this may be not a surprise). Allan Holdsworth had some of that expressiveness and sometimes so does John McLaughlin, typically when he's playing slower rather than blazing away. Or at least I hear it more easily when he's playing slower. But I don't really associate a swing groove with either Holdsworth or McLaughlin.

Talk about clueless on this topic, and yet still pontificating endlessly about it.
The 3 guys you mention, Holdsworth, McLaughlin and Allman couldn't swing if the lives of their children depended on it.
They are great examples of musicians who are the almost the opposite of swinging.
Someone brought up Grant Green earlier. That's one of the greatest examples of jazz swing articulation on a guitar ever. Doesn't get better.

[pamosmusic]

Talk about clueless on this topic, and yet still pontificating endlessly about it.

Yeah gosh if only I could think of another example of what that would be like

[Cunamara]

Talk about clueless on this topic, and yet still pontificating endlessly about it.
The 3 guys you mention, Holdsworth, McLaughlin and Allman couldn't swing if the lives of their children depended on it.

I didn't say they were swinging, I was talking about the expressiveness of how they played notes. However, that was very confusing in context and I have to give you that. Sorry. I was trying to make the point that swing is not always just rhythmic but is also how the melodic line is created- the nuance of the notes, accents, scoops, doits, bends, etc., but I didn't do a very good job of it.

Unfortunately, that kind of nuance with the note is something that jazz guitarists are often not very capable of, in part due to the limitations of the instrument. Especially if you're using 12s-14s or heavier string sets.

[jazzyfan]

I didn't say they were swinging, I was talking about the expressiveness of how they played notes. However, that was very confusing in context and I have to give you that. Sorry. I was trying to make the point that swing is not always just rhythmic but is also how the melodic line is created- the nuance of the notes, accents, scoops, doits, bends, etc., but I didn't do a very good job of it.

Unfortunately, that kind of nuance with the note is something that jazz guitarists are often not very capable of, in part due to the limitations of the instrument. Especially if you're using 12s-14s or heavier string sets.

That's ok, everyone makes errors...That's not what I'm taking "issue" with.
The thing is it felt like you "doubled-down" on your opinions, and (with due respect) I think that you don't actually know much about this topic at all.

[pamosmusic]

I was trying to make the point that swing is not always just rhythmic but is also how the melodic line is created- the nuance of the notes, accents, scoops, doits, bends, etc., but I didn't do a very good job of it.

Unfortunately, that kind of nuance with the note is something that jazz guitarists are often not very capable of, in part due to the limitations of the instrument. Especially if you're using 12s-14s or heavier string sets.

I think about this all the time. For years.

There's definitely a bit of a blind spot with guitarists though --- maybe because they figure we'll never be as expressive as Clark Terry (which is true, I suppose) we just write off working on articulation at all.

[pamosmusic]

That's ok, everyone makes errors....I'm not the jazz police and we've all been mistaken/wrong a million times. It happens.
The thing is it felt like you "doubled-down" on your opinions, and (with due respect) I still think that you don't actually know much about this topic at all.

jazzyfan is a benevolent lord -- kind and tolerant. By his grace and forbearance, let the discussion continue.

[MinToyTot]

There's definitely a bit of a blind spot with guitarists though --- maybe because they figure we'll never be as expressive as Clark Terry (which is true, I suppose) we just write off working on articulation at all.

This might be one area where we could learn from certain non-jazz players from history. Transcribing early electric blues, it's almost like more depends on the delivery of each note than the actual pitches being played. I would never advocate musical ignorance as a means of improving or preserving "feeling," but for these guys it does seem like having to fit the entire breadths of their respective musical contributions into a relatively small number of melodic/harmonic/meta structures resulted in an increased focus on the expressive qualities of the instrument.

I also think timbral choices might play a part in this. I find Barney Kessel to be very expressive, for instance, and one element of that could be the brightness of his tone relative to many (ex. Poll Winners 1, Satin Doll - My favorite!). Wide open tone/volume = more complete/natural frequency range? I don't know, but I do know that I'm not experiencing brass envy when I'm cursing the wild note-to-note dynamic fluctuations that appear in my playing when recording unaccompanied... Food for thought in any case!

"with due respect" lol

[James W]

Talk about clueless on this topic, and yet still pontificating endlessly about it.
The 3 guys you mention, Holdsworth, McLaughlin and Allman couldn't swing if the lives of their children depended on it.
They are great examples of musicians who are the almost the opposite of swinging.

It gets tiresome having to contradict false statements such as this.

If you want to hear how John McLaughlin swings, listen to his playing with The Free Spirits. I am particularly keen on this -

To hear Allan Holdsworth swing, listen to None Too Soon, or one or two tracks on the Sixteen Men of Tain.

[Christian Miller]

Unfalsifiable nonsense.

It's VERY simple. Swing is a triplet.
What is less simple is getting the triplet to sound smooth and relaxed and in time.

Not really.

[pamosmusic]

This might be one area where we could learn from certain non-jazz players from history. Transcribing early electric blues, it's almost like more depends on the delivery of each note than the actual pitches being played. I would never advocate musical ignorance as a means of improving or preserving "feeling," but for these guys it does seem like having to fit the entire breadths of their respective musical contributions into a relatively small number of melodic/harmonic/meta structures resulted in an increased focus on the expressive qualities of the instrument.

Yeah definitely other styles focus on that expression more and jazzers seems to have kind of forgotten about it. But I would say that BB King is kind of the benchmark for me on that one, and he sounds quite a lot like a Charlie Christian fanboy in his early stuff. He’s got a lot of notes when he wants to play them, but seemed less and less compelled to play them as he got older. The Thrill is Gone is peak “expressive guitar” I think.

I also think timbral choices might play a part in this. I find Barney Kessel to be very expressive, for instance, and one element of that could be the brightness of his tone relative to many (ex. Poll Winners 1, Satin Doll - My favorite!). Wide open tone/volume = more complete/natural frequency range? I don't know, but I do know that I'm not experiencing brass envy when I'm cursing the wild note-to-note dynamic fluctuations that appear in my playing when recording unaccompanied... Food for thought in any case!

Oddly enough I have never been a Barney Kessel fan so I haven’t really thought of him that way. But it does seem to be broadly true that jazz guitarists tend to have a brighter sound than we credit them for. Grant Green, Benson, etc. Not 100% sure where the “tone knob rolled all the way off” thing came from.

[pamosmusic]

Not really.

how dare you

[Strat-itis]

It's demonstrable. It's learnable, perhaps more than it is teachable. But it is not readily explainable using our whole note, half note, quarter note, eighth note, 16th note, 32nd note, 64th note, triplets, etc. time scheme. The swing beat doesn't land exactly on any of those, and yet it doesn't not land on them either.

Oh I absolutely agree. If you quantize rhythms, it won't swing. That still doesn't mean it's impossible to explain, does it?

Check it out: Miles's solo on So What. A beautiful, gently swinging solo. The notes in the transcription seem accurate, but listen to how Miles swings some of those things through dynamics and massaging the note- tiny crescendos and decrescendos, little bends, a little staccato accent. All while being right on top of the count almost all the time. This is a masterpiece of expressive soloing and a wonderful demonstration of doing a whole lot with a minimum resources. The swing is what gives it that, but I would defy anyone to successfully notate that in western music.

This is simply the property of flexibility. You don't always phrase 100% precisely. You often have to push or pull to play the phrase expressively. But this is done in a correlation with the strict tempo, not haphazardly. How hard was that to explain? :P

[Strat-itis]

Swing is a triplet.

Man that is rough how authoritative you act and misinformed you are at the same time.

Where are you people coming up with this 'swing is a triplet?' Swing is also keeping good time, but phrasing flexibly, using faster subdivisions for excitement, rhythmic flux apart from triplets, your sense of where you feel the beat - ahead, right on, behind etc. Triplets and triplet feel are involved, but it is not the only thing that creates swing. Lord have mercy.

[Cunamara]

That's ok, everyone makes errors...That's not what I'm taking "issue" with.
The thing is it felt like you "doubled-down" on your opinions, and (with due respect) I think that you don't actually know much about this topic at all.

well, I've only been at it for 45 years. Hopefully I'll catch on eventually.

[Cunamara]

I think about this all the time. For years.

There's definitely a bit of a blind spot with guitarists though --- maybe because they figure we'll never be as expressive as Clark Terry (which is true, I suppose) we just write off working on articulation at all.

I suppose the "thunk" is an articulation of sorts.

I wonder if people refer to certain jazz guitarists as playing in a "bluesy" fashion what they're really referring to is articulation rather than lines based in the blues scale.

It seems like the guitarists I hear in jazz who make a lot of use of articulation tend to also be using lighter gauge strings (Jim Hall, Ed Bickert, John Abercrombie, Scofield, etc.).

[Doctor Jeff]

Sorry to interrupt the above. If it don't have that swing...

I was only vaguely familiar with Mancuso until the above post. I listened to most of his (only) album today, and was pleasantly surprised. Not only does he have other-worldly chops, but he plays with a strong sense of melody and lot of expression.

Of course one hears echoes of other great young guitarists of the past--in particular I hear Steve Morse and Al Dimeola in his playing, though his speed dwarfs (dwarves?) those guys.

But, he isn't just a buncha notes for a buncha notes sake. Matteo does swing on some of the songs, my ear tells me, though for the most part he tends toward the super-rapid legato playing that defies swing.

I like the album and would likely listen to it again and again. He can't keep making the same type of record, though, or he will end up like some other hot young players who wore out their welcomes.

For the above video though I found myself rooting for Tommy. Tommy is not just a great player, but he has an infectious sense of fun in his playing that transcends technique. And his bag of tricks is even bigger than Mancuso's, in fact might be his biggest strength. Actually, I think his biggest strength is as an arranger. He takes well-known songs and makes them his own--much harder than it looks. And it doesn't hurt that he can passably sing. I haven't had the chance to see him in concert, but TBH there aren't a lot of solo guitarists I would see who don't sing. At some point the notes just get tiring.

Come to think of it--I have seen very few great guitarists play completely solo. Leo Kottke comes to mind--and he did sing a number of songs in his set.

[pingu]

I figured that pingu meant identifying pitches at fast tempos when he said, "I just wish I could hear that fast."

yeah I like it and all , I just wish I could
hear it properly !

[wolflen]

I suppose the "thunk" is an articulation of sorts.

I wonder if people refer to certain jazz guitarists as playing in a "bluesy" fashion what they're really referring to is articulation rather than lines based in the blues scale.

It seems like the guitarists I hear in jazz who make a lot of use of articulation tend to also be using lighter gauge strings (Jim Hall, Ed Bickert, John Abercrombie, Scofield, etc.).

Articulation may be a tech term for what we are discussion..for me its a bit too clinical.

I like "Tasty"..its what will make you smile..outwardly..or in some cases (Miles) inwardly.

[jazzyfan]

Not really.

The characteristic feeling of swing is the triplet - it's the DNA of the swing feel.
There is no denying it...In spite of the nonsense that's being touted on this thread.
The triplet can be flattened, elongated, made closer to a "straight" feel or made more "bouncy" etc etc, but the triplet underlies it all.

[jazzyfan]

well, I've only been at it for 45 years. Hopefully I'll catch on eventually.

With all due respect, people can do something wrong or poorly for their entire lives. Time doesn't necessarily mean anything.
Just putting years into something is no guarantee that you're barking up the right tree.