Tommy Emmanuel & Matteo Mancuso: Sunny

[pamosmusic]

Which I have purposefully ignored; perhaps there is some agreeement amongst those posters that I'm not 'in' on.

I mean … sure man.

Just saying that a lot of people have posted at length what they think on the topic. But I guess this is fun too.

[pamosmusic]

That's just totally wrong.
You DO have to be able to negotiate all kinds of "feels".
Be they straight or swung. It doesn't matter.
Imagine a guy on a gig telling the band that "no I don't do straight feels, sorry"
I can imagine Lou Donaldson saying that, angrily.

So what exactly did I say that’s wrong?

That some people sound great in other contexts even though it’s not their A1 shit?

Not sure why that’s controversial but sure.

[kris]

MM is a master of right hand guitar technique ....
He plays very precisely.

[Flat]

It's a very distinctive right hand technique, isn't it? He discusses his right hand in some detail in this video interview with Rick Beato. It doesn't seem to be exactly a classical guitar technique (about which I know very little), but perhaps some sort of hybrid. A lot of alternating index and middle finger runs.

[Christian Miller]

It's not that hard:

"Sunny" was straight, and that "Blues for John" was swung.

Have you ever heard some of the "true-blue" jazz guys trying to play a funk type thing or even swung 16ths?
MANY totally stink on that. I've heard them playing the triplet fell over a straight funk feel. Almost as if they couldn't turn it off.

I’ve struggled with that a bit. I had to practice playing straight


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[Christian Miller]

MM is a master of right hand guitar technique ....
He plays very precisely.

This we can all agree on…


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[Christian Miller]

I didn't say Sunny was a swing tune or that it was played as a swing tune. I said MM's playing swings. I stand by that.

I didn’t say it was wrong, I’m saying that I’ve never come across someone give someone’s playing on a straight feel tune as an example of their ability to swing.


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[djg]

Otoh do people swing less with overdrive?

[kris]

I think MM is more interested in playing rock-fusion than jazz.
He plays his game at a high level.
He often plays with rhythm sections that are funkier than real jazz.
He is young and likes to play that way.There is a lot of positive energy and thoughtful virtuosity in it.
He swings as much as the rhythm section allows him.

[Christian Miller]

I think MM is more interested in playing rock-fusion than jazz.
He plays his game at a high level.
He often plays with rhythm sections that are funkier than real jazz.
He is young and likes to play that way.There is a lot of positive energy and thoughtful virtuosity in it.
He swings as much as the rhythm section allows him.

I think that's sums it up really well. It's the way he plays and his relationship with his listenership and what he likes to do. And more power to him, many people love it.

So this is the way he plays, right? On the shuffle tune for example, he plays really nicely in the pocket for a couple of phrases - nice octaves etc etc - and then unleashes the licks of doom, and that's what his listeners want. Similar with Sunny actually.

It's actually nothing to do with superstrats (or Yamaha revstars) or distortion vs arch tops and fender amps at all. It's hard to put into words. I get the same vibe from a lot of Manouche stuff to be honest.

[pingu]

i just wish i could hear that fast man

i guess it’s some 4 notes per beat

and some 6 notes per beat
is that called ‘16th note triplets’ ?

wow anyway
Tommy plays drums on the guitar
pretty damn good too !

[Strat-itis]

I wish Berthoud would take up traditional jazz. I low key think he's a tool for not. :P

[Strat-itis]

I guess it’s some 4 notes per beat

and some 6 notes per beat
is that called ‘16th note triplets’ ?

Gotta work those out lol.

[starjasmine]

a lot of people have posted at length what they think on the topic. But I guess this is fun too.

The operative words being "at length" and "fun"
A 125-post discussion of triplets is not my idea of fun.

[Mick-7]

It's not that hard:

"Sunny" was straight, and that "Blues for John" was swung.

Have you ever heard some of the "true-blue" jazz guys trying to play a funk type thing or even swung 16ths?
MANY totally stink on that. I've heard them playing the triplet fell over a straight funk feel. Almost as if they couldn't turn it off.

Never realized that the forum has an invisible ink option, could be useful when you don't really want people to reply to your comment.

i just wish i could hear that fast man

You must first be able to recognize the source of the note pattern - the scale, tonal center, etc.

[pamosmusic]

The operative words being "at length" and "fun"
A 125-post discussion of triplets is not my idea of fun.

Ah well, agree to disagree on that one.

[Strat-itis]

You must first be able to recognize the source of the note pattern - the scale, tonal center, etc.

So if someone is playing a rhythm on a snare drum, you have to be able to first hear the note pattern to hear the rhythm? :P

[pamosmusic]

So if someone is playing a rhythm on a snare drum, you have to be able to first hear the note pattern to hear the rhythm? :P

You could pretty easily come up with an analogy — like if you want to play a rhythm on a snare, you have to be able to hear the subdivision in time.

That is probably true

[Strat-itis]

You don't need to know what pitches or pitch organization it is to figure out the rhythm.

[pamosmusic]

You don't need to know what pitches or pitch organization it is to figure out the rhythm.

Obviously.

[Mick-7]

So if someone is playing a rhythm on a snare drum, you have to be able to first hear the note pattern to hear the rhythm? :P

I figured that pingu meant identifying pitches at fast tempos when he said, "I just wish I could hear that fast."

[Cunamara]

Swing is a feel, not a count. You can make quarter notes swing, eighth notes swing, 16th notes swing, triplets swing, dotted 8ths swing, etc. Swing is not pedagogical. It's not counted out. Can't be academicized. Can't even really talk about it successfully on a web forum.

Swing is what makes jazz sexy, like it makes dancing sexy. It's the swing of the hip, not the step of the foot, that makes it work. It's the motion in the ocean, what makes your lover or your audience say "oh, yeah!" It's the opposite of uptight, it's attentively relaxed. Doesn't hurry, bides its time, makes its move. Swing is sinuous, graceful and a little bit dangerous. Play from the hips, baby. Hips don't lie (to borrow a phrase).

[ragman1]

[Strat-itis]

Swing is a feel, not a count. You can make quarter notes swing, eighth notes swing, 16th notes swing, triplets swing, dotted 8ths swing, etc. Swing is not pedagogical. It's not counted out. Can't be academicized. Can't even really talk about it successfully on a web forum.

True it's not a simple academic system that if you do this one thing like keep a perfect triplet, you'll be swinging. But you can still explain the traits that improve and achieve swing. Rhythm isn't unexplainable.

[Christian Miller]

That can all be true, and a musician will also make a distinction between swung and straight feel. This is neither academic nor abstract - its a matter of basic competence.

(Also the fact that not all swung feels are jazz swing feels, of course.)

As far as when someone says 'this player really swings' the mainstream context as far as I understand it is not quite interchangeable with 'this player has got great feel', or 'really grooves', 'has great feel' or 'has great pocket'. It's something more specific to jazz feel and not so much bossa, samba, soul/funk, tango, afro-beat, balkan 7/8s or any other feels that might also feature in American jazz. At least, that's how I've always heard it used, and how I tend to use it myself most of the time.

Not that I'm the language police, but it may help to know what I mean I'm saying.