Tommy Emmanuel & Matteo Mancuso: Sunny

[Flat]

[GuyBoden]

Great live performance, I wish I was there, and, who said you can't play fast with finger picking, erm, I think it was me................................

Both great players, but, Matteo what a young talent.

Very enjoyable, thanks for posting.

[Flat]

Yeah, I thought Tommy did a great job holding down the rhythm in a really powerful way, but it was young Matteo who had me shaking my damn head.

I often hit a point listening to a guy play a blizzard of notes when I start thinking "That's a bit too much. Even for me. Too much to digest. More than I can really hear and understand as it's happening."

But I thought Matteo came away looking the master here. I'm looking forward to hearing more from the guy as he continues to grow.

[starjasmine]

I *love* both players and was going to post this to another thread that was debating MM's ability to "swing" but declined to do so after he went into the distortion solo. The first-clean-then-distorted format is becoming a bit of a trope for him.

This is not meant to be "criticism from the cheap seats." I'm just saying that his clean-tone solo swung hard and stood very well on its own. This performance did not need the even-faster distortion solo to be impressive.

That said, I loved the places MM took his solo to in the distortion part. He is truly a unique voice.

[equenda]

Pat is smiling up above in his cloud.

Ettore

[Christian Miller]

I *love* both players and was going to post this to another thread that was debating MM's ability to "swing" but declined to do so after he went into the distortion solo.

This makes no sense to me… this has nothing to do with whether or not Matteo can swing, it just seems an odd choice of example.

The feel is straight 16ths. He plays some bebop phrases I guess?

(In fact uptempo bebop is quite similar to a funk feel at half the tempo but that’s another subject really…)

Maybe for some “swing” is ‘play bebop lines with a clean sound’? This is not what I mean when I use the term.

Otoh do people swing less with overdrive? I actually think Allan Holdsworth was pretty swinging when he wanted to be. 16 men of Tain for instance.

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[James W]

Love the video of Sunny.

This is the example I give if someone thinks MM doesn't swing -

[kris]

Nice jazz-rock stuff!

[Christian Miller]

Well it's not a straight feel, at least!

Man can really play for sure.

[Mick-7]

I was more impressed by Tommy's acoustic shredding. I heard Matteo play a few Pat Martino licks.

[starjasmine]

This makes no sense to me… this has nothing to do with whether or not Matteo can swing, it just seems an odd choice of example.

The feel is straight 16ths.

This is what I think of as straight 16ths.

[pamosmusic]

Are we really arguing about whether Sunny swings?

Does it need to?

[Christian Miller]

This is what I think of as straight 16ths.

I mean, people have different definitions of swing, but in empirical terms there is a 16th note inequality in the track James posted and not so much in the Sunny video.

In terms of being able to play swing there may not be that much difference between playing uptempo bop and playing a funk feel at half the tempo. Perhaps a subtle difference of pocket - up tempo bop is slightly more lagging the beat. I think Matteo sounds strong on that stuff, that clip with Joscho Stephan for example. Largely it’s a matter of articulation.

In general many players find themselves lapsing into habitual double time, or quite often triplets is where medium up shades into medium - say around 180 and south.

These are not ‘jam session’ tempos… but I think they are real a litmus test for swing feel. Some cats just don’t play them! A lot of people play double time here.

This is where I feel the great swing players of the tradition really were able to stay on the eighth note and not sound corny. Grant Green for example, etc. Dexter of course.


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[starjasmine]

I think someone is arguing about what swing feel is. I didn't realize, after decades of playing jazz, that there is an empirical measurement to be met. I'll get onto Amazon and order my swing-o-meter immediately so that I can make sure that the minimum temporal inequality is met or exceeded.

[Christian Miller]

Are we really arguing about whether Sunny swings?

Does it need to?

This is JGO


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[starjasmine]

I mean, people have different definitions of swing, but in empirical terms there is a 16th note inequality in the track James posted and not so much in the Sunny video.

Neither of which are straight-time feel, so I'm not sure what point it is that you are trying to make.

[pamosmusic]

I think someone is arguing about what swing feel is. I didn't realize, after decades of playing jazz, that there is an empirical measurement to be met. I'll get onto Amazon and order my swing-o-meter immediately so that I can make sure that the minimum temporal inequality is met or exceeded.

Theres a whole thread on this fwiw

Thoughts on triplet-swing.

[Christian Miller]

I think someone is arguing about what swing feel is. I didn't realize, after decades of playing jazz, that there is an empirical measurement to be met. I'll get onto Amazon and order my swing-o-meter immediately so that I can make sure that the minimum temporal inequality is met or exceeded.

Sunny is a straight funk feel, the track James posted is a shuffle.

the first has an equal division of 16ths and the second has an inequality, a “swing” if you will.

As in ‘hey guitarist, stop swinging that rhythm pattern, it should be straight’.

That’s the empirical aspect.

The wider meaning depends a bit. It’s subjective.

Someone’s ability to swing in straightahead jazz is usually connected to their ability to play with a conventional jazz rhythm section playing a swing feel.

Does Benson swing when he is soloing on a funk/r’n’b groove? Dunno. Clearly being able to play greasy solos in a straight feel is a connected skill to being able to swing on a fast bop tune. A strong sense of groove is transferrable. But I get into the weeds a bit more with my previous post.

In terms of posting a clip of someone playing on a straight groove and saying ‘this shows this person can really swing’ - I don’t think that’s something I have come across before. There’s is usually a connection to music that’s swings more in the other sense.

There are players around who sound great on straight grooves but are not at home in a jazz rhythm section (and vice versa.) Actually often they tend to over compensate! (Nb Macuso doesn’t do this at all.)

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[jazzyfan]

Sunny is a straight funk feel, the track James posted is a shuffle.

the first has an equal division of 16ths and the second has an inequality, a “swing” if you will.

As in ‘hey guitarist, stop swinging that rhythm pattern, it should be straight’.

That’s the empirical aspect.

The wider meaning depends a bit. It’s subjective.

Someone’s ability to swing in straightahead jazz is usually connected to their ability to play with a conventional jazz rhythm section playing a swing feel.

Does Benson swing when he is soloing on a funk/r’n’b groove? Dunno. Clearly being able to play greasy solos in a straight feel is a connected skill to being able to swing on a fast bop tune. A strong sense of groove is transferrable. But I get into the weeds a bit more with my previous post.

In terms of posting a clip of someone playing on a straight groove and saying ‘this shows this person can really swing’ - I don’t think that’s something I have come across before. There’s is usually a connection to music that’s swings more in the other sense.

There are players around who sound great on straight grooves but are not at home in a jazz rhythm section (and vice versa.) Actually often they tend to over compensate! (Nb Macuso doesn’t do this at all.)

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It's not that hard:

"Sunny" was straight, and that "Blues for John" was swung.

Have you ever heard some of the "true-blue" jazz guys trying to play a funk type thing or even swung 16ths?
MANY totally stink on that. I've heard them playing the triplet fell over a straight funk feel. Almost as if they couldn't turn it off.

[pamosmusic]

Have you ever heard some of the "true-blue" jazz guys trying to play a funk type thing or even swung 16ths?
MANY totally stink on that. I've heard them playing the triplet fell over a straight funk feel. Almost as if they couldn't turn it off.

I think that’s kind of Christians point. We don’t need everybody to be everything.

Peter Bernstein isn’t a funk guitarist but I love listening to him play that vibe.

(And your above description sounds like you’ve heard me playing funk)

[starjasmine]

I think C and I are going to have to agree to disagree. As someone who gigged in funk bands for over a decade, I wouldn't call this version of Sunny a funk tune. Both funk and shuffle have an element of swing feel that is totally absent in the Bach preludes example I posted.

All of the academic postulation and analysis in the world is not going to make me say that this performance by these players doesn't swing. It swings, it grooves, you can say all sorts of things about it. One thing you can't say is that it is straight time.

Time is swung or straight. Period. It's not a matter of degree, just as one can't be "a little bit pregnant."

Did I say this was a swing tune? No. Did I say MM's playing swings? Yes.

If Christian hears this differently than I do, that's fine. We don't need to negotiate.

[jazzyfan]

I think C and I are going to have to agree to disagree. As someone who gigged in funk bands for over a decade, I wouldn't call this version of Sunny a funk tune. Both funk and shuffle have an element of swing feel that is totally absent in the Bach preludes example I posted.

All of the academic postulation and analysis in the world is not going to make me say that this performance by these players doesn't swing. It swings, it grooves, you can say all sorts of things about it. One thing you can't say is that it is straight time.

Time is swung or straight. Period. It's not a matter of degree, just as one can't be "a little bit pregnant."

Did I say this was a swing tune? No. Did I say MM's playing swings? Yes.

If Christian hears this differently than I do, that's fine. We don't need to negotiate.

That's just nonsense man. Sunny at the top is unswung. And the recording of Blues for John IS swung.
It's not hard .

[jazzyfan]

I think that’s kind of Christians point. We don’t need everybody to be everything.

Peter Bernstein isn’t a funk guitarist but I love listening to him play that vibe.

(And your above description sounds like you’ve heard me playing funk)

That's just totally wrong.
You DO have to be able to negotiate all kinds of "feels".
Be they straight or swung. It doesn't matter.
Imagine a guy on a gig telling the band that "no I don't do straight feels, sorry"
I can imagine Lou Donaldson saying that, angrily.

[starjasmine]

Theres a whole thread on this fwiw

Thoughts on triplet-swing.

Which I have purposefully ignored; perhaps there is some agreeement amongst those posters that I'm not 'in' on.

[starjasmine]

That's just nonsense man. Sunny at the top is unswung. And the recording of Blues for John IS swung.
It's not hard .

I didn't say Sunny was a swing tune or that it was played as a swing tune. I said MM's playing swings. I stand by that.