Thoughts on triplet-swing.

[GuyBoden]

A lot of great players don’t quite understand swing because for them it’s intuitive. We don’t need the max plank institute to tell us the key to swing feel is finding the pocket and staying in it of course.

What I said is truest for eighth note bop lines. As with everything it depends. When we play with a rhythm section our upbeats need to be synched. But if there’s a downbeat accent that needs to be just so as well.

Connecting eighth note lines are placed straight and late. The reason why straight swings with a rhythm section is because the upbeats still hook up with the drums skip note etc. This is something that is encouraged by horn tonguing. It’s also why playing on top and overdotting often go together with beginners - not that a big dot always doesn’t swing.

(You can also cut across the swing and play straight and synched with the downbeat and straight which creates an implied double time. Oh hi Grant Green.)

OTOH if you are playing bass the placement can be pushed but not rushed. You certainly don’t want to drag, and that’s because you are playing accented downbeats.

My favourite is the example of this is how Paul Chamvers goes from relaxed ‘horn time’ to a more pushed ‘bass time’ in the head of So What into the solos.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think we need one of your excellent videos.

[djg]

We don’t need the max plank institute to tell us the key to swing feel is finding the pocket and staying in it of course.

being a spelling nazi that made me cringe

[ragman1]

Anyway, to repeat - sorry to repeat myself - triplets are not literally swung. When someone swings a line they're just playing syncopated triplets and this gives the illusion of some sort of rhythmic bounce. But actually, technically at least, it's all straight playing.

When a player swings this:



It sounds like this:



And when he includes an actual triplet in his line:



he's only filling in what was previously left out:




This is one reason why a machine like a midi can reproduce the swing feel. It's only playing straight with the right spaces, it's not emoting some mysterious jazzy soulful thing.

But we, as humans, do. We play with feeling, if we're any good, that is, and therefore we're bound to distort the strict metronomically correct time pattern.

So when emanresu asks for the 'perfect swing feel' he's saying he wants to play like a machine. I don't actually think he does, of course, he just wants to play as evenly as possible. And what's wrong with that?

But, again to repeat, there's no magic method to help him do it, he just has to do his best. And some players can do it better than others. But jazz isn't classical music. If anything, jazz is all about bending the time values to produce a certain feel that people find attractive.

At least, that's the way I see it.

[James W]

But jazz isn't classical music. If anything, jazz is all about bending the time values to produce a certain feel that people find attractive.

At least, that's the way I see it.

But in certain kinds of classical music - Baroque - there is or was a similar thing - 'notes inegales'.

[djg]

(You can also cut across the swing and play straight and synched with the downbeat and straight which creates an implied double time. Oh hi Grant Green.)

OTOH if you are playing bass the placement can be pushed but not rushed. You certainly don’t want to drag, and that’s because you are playing accented downbeats.

My favourite is the example of this is how Paul Chamvers goes from relaxed ‘horn time’ to a more pushed ‘bass time’ in the head of So What into the solos.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

right. here it is all. the straight double time and the closest i know to a perfect triplet feel. if you really focus on feeling the triplets you can perfectly syc up with grant for the head and solo when he doesnt doubletime through.

[ragman1]

But in certain kinds of classical music - Baroque - there is or was a similar thing - 'notes inegales'.

https://americanrecorder.org/docs/AR...esinegales.pdf

[supersoul]

This is one reason why a machine like a midi can reproduce the swing feel. It's only playing straight with the right spaces, it's not emoting some mysterious jazzy soulful thing.

But we, as humans, do. We play with feeling, if we're any good, that is, and therefore we're bound to distort the strict metronomically correct time pattern.

So when emanresu asks for the 'perfect swing feel' he's saying he wants to play like a machine. I don't actually think he does, of course, he just wants to play as evenly as possible. And what's wrong with that?

But, again to repeat, there's no magic method to help him do it, he just has to do his best. And some players can do it better than others. But jazz isn't classical music. If anything, jazz is all about bending the time values to produce a certain feel that people find attractive.

At least, that's the way I see it.

Drum machines usually have a swing knob that lets you dial in the amount you want. 50% is straight, 66% is full swing, but you can set it at 54% and it gives a bounce without sounding hokey.

This TR-808 emulation has a swing knob:
Roland50.studio

[pamosmusic]

This is one reason why a machine like a midi can reproduce the swing feel.

this bums me out

[pamosmusic]

right. here it is all. the straight double time and the closest i know to a perfect triplet feel. if you really focus on feeling the triplets you can perfectly syc up with grant for the head and solo when he doesnt doubletime through.

Does Grants swing line up so perfectly with triplets at every tempo?

[djg]

Does Grants swing line up so perfectly with triplets at every tempo?

that's for another thread. this one was about the perfect triplet swing and your question "How many players with great swing play a perfect triplet swing feel? " Grant is one imo.

[pamosmusic]

that's for another thread. this one was about the perfect triplet swing and your question "How many players with great swing play a perfect triplet swing feel? " Grant is one imo.

Is it?

The thread was about the value of practicing a perfectly subdivided triplet swing eighth note over copying players swing feels.

My question was to that point.

Grant Green might be one (the solo I make pretty much all my students play at one point or another is No 1 Green St and that one is certainly triplety) but if the example we come up with for someone who plays with a perfect triplet subdivision only does it at certain tempos, I kind of think that would be extremely relevant to the OP.

for what it’s worth, I’ve said some version of this several times over the course of this whole thing:

Swing is more complex than that, though. Patterns of accents, accents based on line shape, the stretching or straightening of the eighth notes based on personal taste, the stretching or straightening of eighth notes based on tempo, pushing or laying back against the beat.

I think there’s a lot of value in practicing some of those skills on their own — I’ve put a lot of time into practicing accent patterns, for example — but I don’t think you should trick yourself into thinking it’s going to help you swing. It will give you the technical tools you need to get swinging, but it’s not swinging

[djg]

Is it?

The thread was about the value of practicing a perfectly subdivided triplet swing eighth note over copying players swing feels.

yup. and the question was raised whether perfect triplet time does even exist and if it does represent swing feel or if it is per definition amateur hour gallop. my opinion: yes it exists and it does represent swing feel. as to perfectly subdivided vs individual feels. these are not mutually exclusive. the answer as with most things jazz guitar is Grant Green

[pamosmusic]

yup. and the question was raised whether perfect triplet time does even exist and if it does represent swing feel or if it is per definition amateur hour gallop. my opinion: yes it exists and it does represent swing feel. as to perfectly subdivided vs individual feels. these are not mutually exclusive.

Sure. I think what I would say is that triplets without bebop/swing articulation is amateur hour gallop. But also lots of people swing like crazy without the triplet subdivision because they have the swing in all the other parts of their attack.

So it's a syllogism or whatever ... triplets can't swing without articulation, but articulation can swing without triplets, therefore the articulation is the thing that you'd want to have cold if you want to swing.

And it's interesting to find myself on this side of the argument. I feel like I've developed a bit of a reputation as a sort of systematic practice nut, on top of which I'm a big big metronome practicer. But I have literally never practiced a triplet sudivided swing eighth note in isolation.

I've practiced loads of accents patterns on eighth notes. Quite a few on triplets. Fewer on sixteenth notes. Lots of combinations of long with left-hand muted staccatos. Different upstroke/downstroke combinations. Slurring into downbeats in every position that I can (which is probably the only thing of all this that I would hold up as being more important than the rest, but also something I don't necessarily encourage other people to do to the extent I've done it).

But none of that stuff swings. They're all tools that I think are useful when I sit down with transcribed lines and try to play them the way that I hear them. And that is where the swing comes from full stop.

So maybe I should practice a triplet subdivided swing, but at best, I'd give it a spot on the shelf with all that other stuff and wouldn't weight it any higher than all those other tools. And when I only have time for one thing, I pick the solo I'm working on and sit for thirty minutes with the same line, play it along with the recording, work it in different fingerings and at different tempos etc etc. So all the other stuff is subordinate to that, or is there to facilitate that.

the answer as with most things jazz guitar is Grant Green

This is true.

[Christian Miller]

The triplet swing is a thing to be able to do. The straight is also a thing to be able to do. There are points in between.

When you think about it music has that 6/8 Bembe lilt, so it's very present in medium tempo music. You have to be able to find it at these tempo. Which is hipper than just triplets of course but it starts by feeling the 12/8.

[pamosmusic]

The triplet swing is a thing to be able to do. The straight is also a thing to be able to do. There are points in between.

When you think about it music has that 6/8 Bembe lilt, so it's very present in medium tempo music. You have to be able to find it. Which is hipper than just triplets of course but it starts by feeling the 12/8.

Yeah. When I was doing more of this stuff, I would be like -- sh** trumpet players have Arban's so why do I not have any command of that kind of articulation. So I'd work on tons of stuff like that. And I'm glad I did, for sure. I think a lot of guitar players don't think about stuff like that, even if they're quite good at it.

But more recently, I lean way more into trying to find those meta-rhythms. A lot of eighths grouped in three, or in clave groupings, a lot of triplets grouped in two, three or four, a lot of quarter note triplets, bebop heads with the clave click.

[Christian Miller]

Yeah. When I was doing more of this stuff, I would be like -- sh** trumpet players have Arban's so why do I not have any command of that kind of articulation. So I'd work on tons of stuff like that. And I'm glad I did, for sure. I think a lot of guitar players don't think about stuff like that, even if they're quite good at it.

But more recently, I lean way more into trying to find those meta-rhythms. A lot of eighths grouped in three, or in clave groupings, a lot of triplets grouped in two, three or four, a lot of quarter note triplets, bebop heads with the clave click.

One reason why so many players have to double time at medium tempos its because they aren't feeling the triplet. You can get away with it on faster tempos because you can play straight in the pocket with the right articulation and it will sound right. Slower, you can't do that anymore, so they switch to double time phrasing which is their happy place.

This was a criticism Barry made of Sonny Stitt if I recall correctly. "He could fool you at fast tempos." I mean obviously most of who are not bebop legends would be happy to suck like Stitt, so to speak, but it's interesting.

But how many bands play medium bounce in jazz clubs these days? It's nice more musicians seem to playing for dancers. These are real world things that come up then.

[pamosmusic]

One reason why so many players have to double time at medium tempos its because they aren't feeling the triplet. You can get away with it on faster tempos because you can play straight in the pocket with the right articulation and it will sound right. Slower, you can't do that anymore, so they switch to double time phrasing which is their happy place.

This was a criticism Barry made of Sonny Stitt if I recall correctly. "He could fool you at fast tempos." I mean obviously most of who are not bebop legends would be happy to suck like Stitt, so to speak, but it's interesting.

But how many bands play medium bounce in jazz clubs these days? It's nice more musicians seem to playing for dancers. These are real world things that come up then.

Dan Wilson calls that medium down swing the “adult tempo” for a reason, I guess

[rpjazzguitar]

I think it's a good idea to be able to play a perfect triplet. Also a perfect tied triplet and any combination of 8ths and 16ths. Etc.

Being able to get that stuff accurate means you can play lines with other instruments and nail them.

If you practice it with a metronome, your time accuracy may improve.

Somewhere between a dotted eighth-sixteenth and a triplet is good swing feel. Exactly where (meaning the exact duration of each note) is tempo dependent and maybe a little different for each player, tune and tune-section.

BTW, this is the same issue as in Brazilian music where it is common to see 16th-8th-16th written, but it is not played that way at all tempos. It's somewhere between that and a triplet - and that's roughly speaking.

I see value in practicing it all in strict time, but if you nail it all and play that way in a band, I think you might end up sounding good at a certain range of tempo and for short stretches. For a wider range of tempo and with enough variation to not sound mechanical -- playing it all in strict time won't be great.

To me, the optimal way to work on it is to play with a band where everybody else is good at it, record it all and critique yourself. And, keep doing it. If that doesn't work, get with a teacher who can do it and see if you can drill down to the barrier.

The problem with this advice is that it can be difficult to get into a band situation where the other players are more advanced. But, there are ways to do it, most of which involve getting the better players paid for their time.

Next best is probably playing along with recordings. Anybody need to write that down?

I haven't actually tried this, but putting the recording into DAW, like Reaper, and recording your track with it would allow mixing on playback so that you hear yourself more as a band member would be heard.

[emanresu]

I haven't actually tried this, but putting the recording into DAW, like Reaper, and recording your track with it would allow mixing on playback so that you hear yourself more as a band member would be heard.

I had this problem that when soloing, I had one way of swinging, when comping, I had another. These did not match and playing on my own comp, I noticed it is never in pocket however the shape I was in.
Then checked if I could play the comp evenly, and nope. Not at all.

When aiming for evenness, with some metronomic tricks, I can get it rounded up - both. But so far, after some days, it is like bicycling with helping wheels again.

Not able to pocket the even way. Hence, can't fully agree or disagree if this is the hway.

Glad to see reasoning back in the thread Thanks

[ragman1]

it gives a bounce without sounding hokey.

Thanks for that. Yes, you definitely don't want it sounding hokey :-)

[ragman1]

emanresu -

Apparently you're not the only one. I was working in the garden today for far too long and it was very hot. Later I did this version of 'In A Sentimental Mood'.

It wasn't till I played it back that I realised that the timing on the head was... unusual :-)

[Christian Miller]

Anyway, to repeat - sorry to repeat myself - triplets are not literally swung. When someone swings a line they're just playing syncopated triplets and this gives the illusion of some sort of rhythmic bounce. But actually, technically at least, it's all straight playing.

When a player swings this:



It sounds like this:



And when he includes an actual triplet in his line:



he's only filling in what was previously left out:




This is one reason why a machine like a midi can reproduce the swing feel. It's only playing straight with the right spaces, it's not emoting some mysterious jazzy soulful thing.

But we, as humans, do. We play with feeling, if we're any good, that is, and therefore we're bound to distort the strict metronomically correct time pattern.

So when emanresu asks for the 'perfect swing feel' he's saying he wants to play like a machine. I don't actually think he does, of course, he just wants to play as evenly as possible. And what's wrong with that?

But, again to repeat, there's no magic method to help him do it, he just has to do his best. And some players can do it better than others. But jazz isn't classical music. If anything, jazz is all about bending the time values to produce a certain feel that people find attractive.

At least, that's the way I see it.

No, not really.

[Christian Miller]

I discuss my ideas about swing phrasing a little bit in this video. It's better than trying to communicate in text because I can demonstrate (a bit) what I mean.

[rictroll]

Play along with Cedar Walton recordings with Billy Higgins.

IMO you’ll find that there’s a lot of jazz between straight and triplet 8th notes.

I have always loved the feel of this cut:

[Lionelsax]

Triplet and swing are different in terms of articulation.
Swing feel on 8th notes, slurs are inverted compared to "traditional".
On triplet even in swing the attack is on the beat.