Thoughts on triplet-swing.

[Tone bar]

Dear Lord man. Please be reasonable and explain yourself clearly. You're talking about the swing feel of the 8th notes right? As triplets are divided evenly, but swung 8th notes with good feel are absolutely not a triplet with the 1st 8th note tied to the 2nd and then the 3rd sounding in the last 1/3 of the bar. You adjust the proportion of how long each sounds for the feel you want. Playing it truly as written is going to sound very cheesy.

[Tone bar]

Ah, I think I know now what you're asking... (maybe?)
You're not asking about how to play triplets in swing time; you're asking about how to play swing 8th notes, and how close they should come to the 1st two partials of an 8th note triplet tied together, followed by the last partial of that 8th note triplet rule of thumb that gets kicked around when trying to describe "swing" to folks unfamiliar with jazz

...right?

If so: That rule of thumb only exists to get neophytes into the general ballpark. A "perfect mathematical" execution of this commonly used* indication

Attachment 122649

usually sounds like ass in jazz. It sounds like a beginner.
Don't do that. Don't work on making your swing 8ths sound like "perfect triplets" ...work on making them swing like the great jazz players throughout history.

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*interesting observation: When I was doing a lot of international society orchestra work, I noticed that the swing 8ths = triplets indication was mostly used by American and Western European arrangers/copyists. All the Eastern European and Asian arrangers/copyists would use the swing 8ths = dotted 8th, 16th indication when a chart called for a swing feel!

==========

another observation, or question: Do you work with MIDI sequencers or Digital Audio Workstations that allow one to divide linear time into a grid where each quarter note can be divided into 480 or 960 (et al) partials?
I only ask because I've never encountered a musician who thought about "perfect mathematical" rhythm subdivisions who didn't have a background in that sort of technology.

This is one is known around my living room as the Jazz Band Gallop.

Reminds me of a galloping horse.

Heard often in high school jazz bands.

...

[emanresu]

Dear Lord man. Please be reasonable and explain yourself clearly. You're talking about the swing feel of the 8th notes right? As triplets are divided evenly, but swung 8th notes with good feel are absolutely not a triplet with the 1st 8th note tied to the 2nd and then the 3rd sounding in the last 1/3 of the bar. You adjust the proportion of how long each sounds for the feel you want. Playing it truly as written is going to sound very cheesy.

I honestly have no clue what the problem is. You just said exactly what I was asking.

[pamosmusic]

I honestly have no clue what the problem is. You just said exactly what I was asking.

The problem is that everyone else keeps replying to you as though you are asking HOW DO I PLAY TRIPLETS IN A SWING TUNE.

When what you're actually asking is HOW DO I PLAY SWING EIGHTH NOTES.

And "should I play them with a strict triplet subdivision" is the specific context for your question.

For what it's worth, I knew what you were asking in the original post. You just also keep replying to ragman even though he's not answering the same question we are.

[Tone bar]

I honestly have no clue what the problem is. You just said exactly what I was asking.

Which you've never explained clearly in 3 pages and we have ragman running tangents when you could just explain yourself clearly the first time instead of leaving us to read your mind.

[emanresu]

from OP: If we follow those two suggestions—copying different players and using the 2 & 4 metronome approach—how are we supposed to develop a perfect triplet swing feel?
I mean, a clean, idealized version of it. Wouldn't it make sense to start by practicing that perfect swing feel first, and only then explore the more personal, stylized versions?

"perfect triplet swing feel" - is this vague?

[Tone bar]

Yes. You don't specify you're talking about the swung 8th note feel.

[GuyBoden]

And, the thread title is miss leading and open to miss interpretation.

The title of the thread should be changed to 'HOW DO I PLAY SWING EIGHTH NOTES'

As Peter explained succinctly in his post.

Below: Miss Interpretation

[pamosmusic]

For what it's worth, and again, I did get the drift from the original post.

I'm considerably more confused by the continued replies to ragman

[James W]

"perfect triplet swing feel" - is this vague?

Yes. As you can see, we're getting exasperated because of the differing interpretations of what you're saying.

That is to say, I think I and others know what you mean, but because you're using slightly ambiguous language, some people misinterpret what you're saying.

[emanresu]

Yeah, well. You got a short fuse there, Tone bar.

[emanresu]

Yes. As you can see, we're getting exasperated because of the differing interpretations of what you're saying.

That is to say, I think I and others know what you mean, but because you're using slightly ambiguous language, some people misinterpret what you're saying.

English is not my first language, sorry.

[emanresu]

And, the thread title is miss leading and open to miss interpretation.

The title of the thread should be changed to 'HOW DO I PLAY SWING EIGHTH NOTES'

That's vague and way too wide

[Tone bar]

Yeah, well. You got a short fuse there, Tone bar.

Getting emphatic after 3 pages of asking you to confirm you're talking about how to execute 8th notes and not triplets, and you refusing time after time is not a short fuse. You still won't admit it lol.

[emanresu]

Getting emphatic after 3 pages of asking you to confirm you're talking about how to execute 8th notes and not triplets, and you refusing time after time is not a short fuse. You still won't admit it lol.

I didn't refuse. Refusal is an act. I was outside, being busy. While the thread went in it's own way.

[Tone bar]

Yep. You still won't admit what note values you're asking about executing. Like it would kill you to confirm: 'yes, I'm asking about how to execute 8th notes in jazz and not triplets.' Maybe we should go for 4 pages. ragman? Petey?

[emanresu]

"Triplet" is the key word. The note values as 8ths or 16ths doesn't really matter.

Swing as "equally divided triplets" turned out to be problematic for a reason I have still not fully understood.

The issue of "swing is not about triplet-feel, hence there is no way you could ever define swing that way" was taken care on the first page, I think.

[Tone bar]

You still refuse lol!

Wtf note values are you asking how to execute? Triplets?

[emanresu]

You still refuse lol!

Whatever, man. You come here with that, you declare yourself a troll in my eyes.

[pamosmusic]

"Triplet" is the key word. The note values as 8ths or 16ths doesn't really matter.

Swing as "equally divided triplets" turned out to be a problematic for a reason I have still not fully understood.

The issue of "swing is not about triplet-feel, hence there is no way you could ever define swing that way" was taken care on the first page, I think.

You've got an antagonist. He's being difficult now.**

I took a bit of a leap at the beginning of the thread and got what you meant. I understand how others might have been a bit confused. By this point, though, you've made it clear. Ain't no thing.

** Tone bar is beginning to sound vaguely familiar

[Tone bar]

'I'm asking about triplet'.

Demonizes me for not reading his mind that he's really referring to 8th notes. Petey follows suit.

Checks out.

[djg]

"perfect triplet swing feel" - is this vague?

nope. perfectly clear. here#s what you need to practice:

one trip let, two trip let, three trip let, four trip let. then you go: one ... let two...let three...let four...let. (edit: you'd actually be better off thinking let one...let two...let three...let four... ak forward motion into the beat)

while everybody keeps saying how the swing feel is personal and is hard to formalize etc, this is actually not true imo. think big band. you need to be able and *accurately* play a triplet swing feel. only then can you either lead a section or follow a section leader. any good big band horn player can execute a "proper" triplet feel and make it not sound like a hick-up.

imo you should read through the classic books like the louis bellson or the ted reed (both highly recommended) and be able to execute the rhythms either straight or with proper triplet feel without any "personal" time feel/phrasing. so yes there is a way to execute triplet feel "perfectly" and "correctly".

try to get ed thigpens book "sound of brushes"

[pamosmusic]

try to get ed thigpens book "sound of brushes"

Tell me more.

Im a drum kick (if the video I posted earlier doesn’t convince you, or if you missed it in the nonsense) … what are you using this book for in this context?

As for the rest of it. Even in a big band, the triplet thing is a starting point and not an ending point.

Something like Maria Schneider will have a straighter feel whereas you can hear that lengthened eighth note even at the up tempo on something the original Cotton Tail.

Multiple interpretations happening in the same arrangement isn’t weird either — saxophones straighter, and bones more exaggerated, for example. That’s pretty common in Mingus Big Band stuff. Some Quincy stuff.

[djg]

Tell me more.

Im a drum kick (if the video I posted earlier doesn’t convince you, or if you missed it in the nonsense) … what are you using this book for in this context?

As for the rest of it. Even in a big band, the triplet thing is a starting point and not an ending point.

Something like Maria Schneider will have a straighter feel whereas you can hear that lengthened eighth note even at the up tempo on something the original Cotton Tail.

Multiple interpretations happening in the same arrangement isn’t weird either — saxophones straighter, and bones more exaggerated, for example. That’s pretty common in Mingus Big Band stuff. Some Quincy stuff.

i didnt read most of the thread tbh. i worked with the thigpen book many years ago since i had similar questions as op. as a puppy i was lucky to study in a class taught by one of the best big band players, eric van lier. he was huge on executing rhythms accurately *and* with a good feel. i had classmates who were to become top big band players and they nailed this stuff. north of terms like "straighter" or "more exaggerated" or "personal interpretation" imo there is an objective truth of triplet eights that are not amateur band gallop. that is my take-away from the teachings of ed thigpen, which i can relate to from my experience, not that i am anywhere in that league.

[rpjazzguitar]

"perfect triplet swing feel" is confusing to me.

I understand what a perfect triplet is.

What I don't understand is how the word "feel" or even the word "swing" changes anything.

If you're mathematically perfectly correct on the triplet, what does "swing" mean in that context? Accents?

And, more to the point, "feel" implies that you're not playing anything mathematically perfect.

If what you're asking is whether practicing a triplet with the first two notes tied together is going to help swing feel, I'd say only to the degree that it helps improve your time accuracy in a general way.

I'm guessing that it doesn't improve your feel.