Thoughts on triplet-swing.

[emanresu]

I've been focusing on improving my sense of time and developing a solid grip on swing feel.
Most advice I've come across suggests learning it from great players—transcribing and imitating their feel. But the challenge is, they all swing differently.
I remember the first thing we learned in jazz history class was that swing is personal—some players have a sharper feel, others a more laid-back one.
Another common tip is to practice with a metronome on beats 2 and 4.


Here's where I get a bit confused:
If we follow those two suggestions—copying different players and using the 2 & 4 metronome approach—how are we supposed to develop a perfect triplet swing feel?
I mean, a clean, idealized version of it. Wouldn't it make sense to start by practicing that perfect swing feel first, and only then explore the more personal, stylized versions?


What do you think?

edit to clarify: swing with equally divided triplets.
edit to keep it all coherent: lets change "perfect triplet swing feel" to "perfect triplet swing". Forget about the feel. I know it is a lot to ask.

[pamosmusic]

I've been focusing on improving my sense of time and developing a solid grip on swing feel.
Most advice I've come across suggests learning it from great players—transcribing and imitating their feel. But the challenge is, they all swing differently.
I remember the first thing we learned in jazz history class was that swing is personal—some players have a sharper feel, others a more laid-back one.
Another common tip is to practice with a metronome on beats 2 and 4.


Here's where I get a bit confused:
If we follow those two suggestions—copying different players and using the 2 & 4 metronome approach—how are we supposed to develop a perfect triplet swing feel?
I mean, a clean, idealized version of it. Wouldn't it make sense to start by practicing that perfect swing feel first, and only then explore the more personal, stylized versions?


What do you think?

I would answer your question with another question …

How many players with great swing play a perfect triplet swing feel?

[James W]

I would answer your question with another question …

How many players with great swing play a perfect triplet swing feel?

Yeah exactly.

If you slow down the solos of great players, what you find is that they swing inconsistently, which is part of how they get their lines to 'speak'. By inconsistent I mean not always 'perfect' triplets, and of course much depends on the tempo of the tune.

[emanresu]

Well, one theory for "whats art.. all about" is that you got your perfect model, but create something that is different from that, and art is the tension that this created by that expectation and difference.
Not saying that it is THE definition. But I like it.

There is also a suggestion of "first you learn to play "inside", then you can play "outside" - thats with scales.

But instantly to start copying a certain style of feel and skipping even touching that perfect model, it seems strange.

[pamosmusic]

There is also a suggestion of "first you learn to play "inside", then you can play "outside" - thats with scales.

But instantly to start copying a certain style of feel and skipping even touching that perfect model, it seems strange.

The inside outside thing is a bad analogy, because there is tons of vocabulary and there are tons of great players who spend time playing “inside” so you can learn the way people play by learning to play inside first and get to the more advanced stuff down the line.

Learning to play perfect triplet swing is a weird thing because people don’t play that way. So what are you accomplishing by learning it?

Well, one theory for "whats art.. all about" is that you got your perfect model, but create something that is different from that, and art is the tension that this created by that expectation and difference.
Not saying that it is THE definition. But I like it.

And that’s an abstract “tension,” but you might even say that part of the musical tension of swing is the push and pull of that triplet subdivision against the eighth note subdivision. Listen to Clifford Brown play a medium tempo and you’ll hear absolutely straight eighths or sixteenths right next to full triplets against the rhythm section doing what it does.

I mean — I think probably learning to play with a triplet subdivision is good, but not as a prerequisite to learning to play a good swinging eighth note. Learn by listening and let the technical practice build on that.

[emanresu]

Learning to play perfect triplet swing is a weird thing because people don’t play that way. So what are you accomplishing by learning it?

First just to see if I can do it and don't need to cut corners. I mean, "doing my own version" kinda has sometimes meant that I cannot quite get it (something).. under control?
So, just to check if I am able. Maybe gain some confidence. Perhaps.. possibly.

But the other nuance is, when it gets closer to "perfectly round", I feel it is hm.. relaxing? easy?

Well, those are just my thoughts - which are unfinished, of course.

[Bob_Ross]

More anserwing-a-question-with-a-question:

What's the difference between 8th note triplets when swung, versus those same triplets in straight time?

[pamosmusic]

First just to see if I can do it and don't need to cut corners. I mean, "doing my own version" kinda has sometimes meant that I cannot quite get it (something).. under control?
So, just to check if I am able. Maybe gain some confidence. Perhaps.. possibly.

But the other nuance is, when it gets closer to "perfectly round", I feel it is hm.. relaxing? easy?

Well, those are just my thoughts - which are unfinished, of course.

I mean, if you prefer it, then go for it.

Swing is more complex than that, though. Patterns of accents, accents based on line shape, the stretching or straightening of the eighth notes based on personal taste, the stretching or straightening of eighth notes based on tempo, pushing or laying back against the beat.

I think there’s a lot of value in practicing some of those skills on their own — I’ve put a lot of time into practicing accent patterns, for example — but I don’t think you should trick yourself into thinking it’s going to help you swing. It will give you the technical tools you need to get swinging, but it’s not swinging.

So … if you ask —

Should I practice different triplet rhythms to improve my time?

My answer is: Of course you should, why not?

but if you ask —

Should I practice an idealized perfect triplet swing before I try imitating super swinging players I like?

My answer is: that’s not what swing is.

[emanresu]

More anserwing-a-question-with-a-question:

What's the difference between 8th note triplets when swung, versus those same triplets in straight time?

Imho, when the triplets are written out, you better play them as triplets and dare not to stretch anything. I mean, it is written!

[pamosmusic]

Imho, when the triplets are written out, you better play them as triplets and dare not to stretch anything. I mean, it is written!

Imagine saying the same thing about eighth notes

[Bob_Ross]

Imho, when the triplets are written out, you better play them as triplets and dare not to stretch anything. I mean, it is written!

Exactly...so, then what are you actually asking in the OP?

[emanresu]

Exactly...so, then what are you actually asking in the OP?

The thoughts about getting straight into copying good swingers instead working on the "perfect mathematical" model first.

I mean, one other thing, you can then get a better idea of how these swings work, how much stretch there really is compared to the even model.

I asked for your thoughts

[ragman1]

Triplets are not swung, they're fitted into a swing rhythm pattern. They might sound swung but they're not.

[rpjazzguitar]

I've been focusing on improving my sense of time and developing a solid grip on swing feel.
Most advice I've come across suggests learning it from great players—transcribing and imitating their feel. But the challenge is, they all swing differently.
I remember the first thing we learned in jazz history class was that swing is personal—some players have a sharper feel, others a more laid-back one.
Another common tip is to practice with a metronome on beats 2 and 4.


Here's where I get a bit confused:
If we follow those two suggestions—copying different players and using the 2 & 4 metronome approach—how are we supposed to develop a perfect triplet swing feel?
I mean, a clean, idealized version of it. Wouldn't it make sense to start by practicing that perfect swing feel first, and only then explore the more personal, stylized versions?


What do you think?

I'm not sure I even understand the question. What would be a "perfect" triplet swing feel? Seems to me that the words "perfect" and "feel" are not compatible. I know what a "perfect" triplet is, but I don't know what "perfect" feel is.

Can the notes you're alluding be written out in Musescore (or similar) and played back to sound the way you want?

Suppose you could define "perfect swing feel" and specify the exact duration of each note numerically. Those numbers would only work at one tempo. They'd have to be adjusted if you changed tempo. Which is one reason why feel can't be notated.

As far as working on rhythmic feel, it can be difficult. First thing is to make sure that you have the chops to play everything fast enough. If you can't execute easily, time is the first casualty.

Assuming you can play the stuff, then the standard advice is probably the best. Try to copy what you hear on recordings. I think I'd start with Basie small group recordings with Freddie Green in the band. Aebersold material might also be good.

And then, as much live combo work as you can get together. And, that will have to be with players who can do it. If one member of a small group struggles with time, the other members will have trouble with their own time.

[ragman1]

Triplets are not swung. It's virtually impossible to swing a triplet.

repeat repeat

[Bob_Ross]

The thoughts about getting straight into copying good swingers instead working on the "perfect mathematical" model first.

I mean, one other thing, you can then get a better idea of how these swings work, how much stretch there really is compared to the even model.

Ah, I think I know now what you're asking... (maybe?)
You're not asking about how to play triplets in swing time; you're asking about how to play swing 8th notes, and how close they should come to the 1st two partials of an 8th note triplet tied together, followed by the last partial of that 8th note triplet rule of thumb that gets kicked around when trying to describe "swing" to folks unfamiliar with jazz

...right?

If so: That rule of thumb only exists to get neophytes into the general ballpark. A "perfect mathematical" execution of this commonly used* indication



usually sounds like ass in jazz. It sounds like a beginner.
Don't do that. Don't work on making your swing 8ths sound like "perfect triplets" ...work on making them swing like the great jazz players throughout history.

==========

*interesting observation: When I was doing a lot of international society orchestra work, I noticed that the swing 8ths = triplets indication was mostly used by American and Western European arrangers/copyists. All the Eastern European and Asian arrangers/copyists would use the swing 8ths = dotted 8th, 16th indication when a chart called for a swing feel!

==========

another observation, or question: Do you work with MIDI sequencers or Digital Audio Workstations that allow one to divide linear time into a grid where each quarter note can be divided into 480 or 960 (et al) partials?
I only ask because I've never encountered a musician who thought about "perfect mathematical" rhythm subdivisions who didn't have a background in that sort of technology.

[pamosmusic]

I'm not sure I even understand the question. What would be a "perfect" triplet swing feel? Seems to me that the words "perfect" and "feel" are not compatible. I know what a "perfect" triplet is, but I don't know what "perfect" feel is.

This is the thing I think I keep trying to formulate. It seems there's a faulty premise in the question.

[pamosmusic]

If so: That rule of thumb only exists to get neophytes into the general ballpark. A "perfect mathematical" execution of this commonly used* indication



usually sounds like ass in jazz. It sounds like a beginner.
Don't do that. Don't work on making your swing 8ths sound like "perfect triplets" ...work on making them swing like the great jazz players throughout history.

This is one is known around my living room as the Jazz Band Gallop.

Reminds me of a galloping horse.

Heard often in high school jazz bands.

[ragman1]

Triplets are not swung. For that reason they're often approximated or syncopated. Sounds good but they're no longer exact triplets rhythmically-speaking.

talking to the deaf here

[rpjazzguitar]

If that tied triplet thing is taken as "perfect swing" and you work on nailing it -- if you're completely successful you'll be able to sound mechanical.

There's value in being able to read stuff like that really accurately. For example, when you're playing a line with horns.

But, for nailing the way a rhythm section should feel swing? It certainly isn't that, and I'm not convinced it's even on a useful path towards good swing feel. And, as the OP pointed out, good swing feel isn't one thing. The note placement varies with tempo, who is playing and, I suspect, the tune.

[pamosmusic]

Triplets are not swung. For that reason they're often approximated or syncopated. Sounds good but they're no longer exact triplets rhythmically-speaking.

talking to the deaf here

No you’re not. You’re just not offering anything relevant because you’re misunderstanding the question.

Hes not asking how to swing a triplet.

Hes asking if it’s worth practicing a *swing eighth note* using a triplet subdivision.

As Bob pointed out above, in classical music approximating a jazz feel, or in show tunes or beginner jazz charts, the time signature is often supplemented with a “eight note pair equals triplet with the first two tied” notation.

Its fine for some of those situations, but doesn’t have much to do with a swing feel in the wild.

[Tone bar]

Clarify and say you're asking about how to get your swung 8th note feel to sound good. I'm pretty sure that's what you mean. As triplets with 3 notes in a beat are not swung or divided unevenly as ragman says.

My advice is go directly to the good players and copy them. Learn 1 chorus of a transcription of your favorite player and play it like them and internalize it. No, their rhythmic accuracy isn't perfect, but with the greats it's usually pretty damn good.

Like me with vibraphone. Do I dick around for years on end trying to 'make up' my own good feel? Or do I copy Milt, internalize his feel and phrasing and then let my own feel bloom from there? You know the answer.

[pamosmusic]

And for what it’s worth, when we think of “swing” as a lengthening or shortening of some rhythm or another, then you don’t swing a triplet. You couldn’t swing a quarter note either.

BUT

there is a swing feel to any rhythm.

Christian has noted that four on the floor quarter notes are slightly separated, often with that separation being on the “third triplet” of the beat.

I’ve been working on Wes’s Misty for like ….. forever now. Much of that is played in straight triplets, and he does what lots of guys do with a triplet line. There’s a pretty significant accent on the first and third with the second triplet dropped or swallowed a bit.

And even that stuff isn’t uniform. OP swings like crazy when he’s playing Corcovado. Clifford swings like crazy when he’s playing tongue-in-cheek faux classical lines.

So this stuff is not just How Should I Mathematically Modify The Rhythm So As To Maximize My Hipness. Theres a lot going on.

[Tone bar]

^ Yes, that's absolutely the case. There's a lot going on with the subtleties of everything. So you don't want to assume you can engineer your 8th note swing clinically outside of the music and then have everything else in the feel be good. Copy some greats' playing and then you can go in and work on specific rhythms.

Like another thing that makes the music 'swing' is subdivisions beyond the 8th note. But triplets and 16th notes are generally divided evenly.

[ragman1]

emanresu -

The answer to your query is simple. Triplets are not swung, neither is anything above an 8th note, i.e. 16ths, 32nds, etc.

A triplet means three beats in the space of two, irrespective of whether the beats/notes are subdivided or not. So three quarter notes will occupy the space of two quarter notes and so will, say, a dotted quarter note and an eighth note. Or any other division.

The fact that such a division includes an eighth note is irrelevant. Triplets are not swung and nor are subdivisions of their notes. Because such a division includes an eighth note does not mean the eighth note is swung. The whole fragment must still only occupy the space of the two notes that fragment implies.

Clear now?