JGBE Virtual Jam (Round 6) - Night Dreamer

**christianm77** · 02-23-2021, 04:03 PM

OK Wayne might not be everyone's cup of tea even among jazz lovers (I mean to me he's pretty mainstream, but hey), but you know, you might learn something. Some people seem to go out of their way to avoid going out of their comfort zone, and I think Jeff's calls are great for just pushing it enough.

Avoiding going out of your comfort zone is an absolutely fantastic way to never learn anything, and some of those who are moaning might reflect that they have maybe learned something by trying something they wouldn't normally attempt. I dunno.

Speaking for myself I would not have spent this week learning this tune and listening to the record if it hadn't come up. I also made quite a few mistakes in my recording which is why I took it down.

But it was a great learning process to go through, and I'm glad there's an environment like this one where it's OK to post a slightly crappy version of the song.

Nica's Dream is a probably a good shout. For me, it's a tune I already know to jam session level, but it's actually a much more detailed song than that, harder to learn properly than Night Dreamer. So, I'm not sure if I'll post a recording myself, but it may be a good idea for everyone else.

**ragman1** · 02-23-2021, 04:12 PM

That sort of makes you a No. 2

**christianm77** · 02-23-2021, 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

That sort of makes you a No. 2

in this instance maybe.

I’m a member of a few online groups like this and I flit in and out. It’s a priority I’ve set myself to learn lots of new tunes, but if I want to learn the shout chorus, intro some of the solos and do a deep dive into Nica’s dream it might be nice to do so.

**John A.** · 02-23-2021, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

You left out: or you play it!

I said play it 2x.

John

**lawson-stone** · 02-23-2021, 04:51 PM

Something about this discussion has just crushed my motivation to pursue this project. Not trying to "storm off" I think I need to just back away from this whole thing for a while and figure out what has me finding this suddenly depressing.

I only play music for fun. I'm not a "pro" and "if it's called at a jam session" and I can't play it, fine. Nothing in my life depends on being the jam session star. But I won't play songs I think are ugly and unsatisfying. There are plenty of things outside my comfort zone that are challenging and yet still beautiful and satisfying to master. But a tune that is the very image of the cartoon of jazz as ugly and confusing, is not a tune I'm going to play.

Since I don't feel like I fit in here, I'm going to back away and ponder for a while.

**PickingMyEars** · 02-23-2021, 04:59 PM

Lawson-stone,

But the reality is you DO fit in on this thread.

Why?

Because you do what we should all follow...

You actually PLAY and then you POST your playing. That's guts. Especially to an internet crowd--many of whom never met in person.

Most of us, myself included, tend to exercise our typing chops more than our jazz guitar chops on the forum.

So I say, PLEASE STAY.

(smile in your solidarity, I am insecure about my playing as well)

**John A.** · 02-23-2021, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

It'd be a bit of a jagoff tune to call if you didn't know the musicians/whether or not they could play it, really.

It could be that, but might not be.

John

**John A.** · 02-23-2021, 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

Something about this discussion has just crushed my motivation to pursue this project. Not trying to "storm off" I think I need to just back away from this whole thing for a while and figure out what has me finding this suddenly depressing.

I only play music for fun. I'm not a "pro" and "if it's called at a jam session" and I can't play it, fine. Nothing in my life depends on being the jam session star. But I won't play songs I think are ugly and unsatisfying. There are plenty of things outside my comfort zone that are challenging and yet still beautiful and satisfying to master. But a tune that is the very image of the cartoon of jazz as ugly and confusing, is not a tune I'm going to play.

Since I don't feel like I fit in here, I'm going to back away and ponder for a while.

Lawson, it seems to me you've gotten some value out of most of these "jam" tunes so far. I've certainly noticed some real improvements in how you improvise over a pretty short span of time. That's as clear an indicator of "belonging" as any I can think of. I'm definitely not a pro and I bump against tunes I don't really get all the time. Sometimes I persist, and sometimes I don't. Nothing wrong with picking your spots. But I hesitate to call something "ugly and consfusing" when people who's musicianship and opinions I respect find it the opposite to that.

John

**Peter C** · 02-23-2021, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by John A.

OK, so you go to a jam session, and somebody calls "Night Dreamer" or some other not-obvious-how-to-play-it and/or outside(ish) tune. First, let's understand that this is a real-world phenomenon that happens. What do you do? Here are some options

1. Complain about the tune, express disbelief that anyone actually likes it or can play, and try to prevent anyone else from playing it
2. Say it's not your kind of tune, sit out, and say you'll play the next one
3. Brazenly claim you know, and then proceed to spew seafood.
4. Say that you don't know it, and it's unfamiliar ground to you, but will give it a shot
5. Go to a different jam.

Let's just say all have their plusses and minuses. I've seen all in action, to varying effects Number 4 is my go-to, but I'll sometimes go with 2. The problem with 2 is you may not get up again and/or people will keep calling tunes you hate.

John

The little free time I've had available over the last 15-20 years has been dedicated to working on my own stuff and I wasn't listening to a lot of jazz prior to that time. Consquently, I'm definitely nº 4, always ready to jump in. Reactions over the years have been let's say "diverse" from go home fusion boy to wow I wasn't expecting that; rarely indifferent. Anyway, I never saw the sense in trying to sound like someone else.

**mr. beaumont** · 02-23-2021, 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

Something about this discussion has just crushed my motivation to pursue this project. Not trying to "storm off" I think I need to just back away from this whole thing for a while and figure out what has me finding this suddenly depressing.

I only play music for fun. I'm not a "pro" and "if it's called at a jam session" and I can't play it, fine. Nothing in my life depends on being the jam session star. But I won't play songs I think are ugly and unsatisfying. There are plenty of things outside my comfort zone that are challenging and yet still beautiful and satisfying to master. But a tune that is the very image of the cartoon of jazz as ugly and confusing, is not a tune I'm going to play.

Since I don't feel like I fit in here, I'm going to back away and ponder for a while.

Nope, you're not allowed to leave. Start shedding Nica

We all dig different things. This process has been good for me too--im finding out my tastes aren't definitive.

And yeah, I should have known that already, but hey...

**mr. beaumont** · 02-23-2021, 06:59 PM

And also, its always been my intention to--once we were up and running-- to let other folks call tunes. So maybe its getting close to time for that too.

**christianm77** · 02-23-2021, 08:03 PM

I don’t think there’s any particular compulsion or not to participate.

I admire Lawson’s participation in pretty much all the playing on the forum. I also think it’s demonstrably done a great deal for your playing, Lawson, and while the value of playing music you don’t like might seem dubious it’s still great that you did it.

You did in fact go outside of your comfort zone.

When Jeff calls something I hate now I will be honour bound to play it. I’ll have a think about the songs I don’t like.... Little Sunflower or something. Or Bye Bye Blackbird. Song for my Father (it’s a great record, I cannot play it.)

**mr. beaumont** · 02-23-2021, 08:54 PM

I definitely never thought the same folks needed to participate every week. Come and go as you please.

I'm playing every week because I started the damn thing, and I haven't played with humans in 13 months, so I better.

**Hep To The Jive** · 02-23-2021, 09:30 PM

Perhaps Night Dreamer is a type of tune that hard to dig if you dont have a rock side in you. I mean, to me you have to like rock music to see the textural opportunity it offers. Straight ahead jazz approach does create cognitive dissonance lol. If I had to play it on archtop with clean tone or something I would not enjoy playing it at all. Jazz rock fusion is a thing though, worth look into.

Textural approach is great btw. I recently was hungry for some Vernon Reid style soloing. Speed can be a texture. Some call it umusical and garbage, but I think I prefer that to virtuoso display in classical tradition. And of course no one cancel the distortion sound yet, or any other guitar effects. It's all fun. Plus I'm stuck with a tele, no archtops around.

**ragman1** · 02-23-2021, 10:21 PM

Okay, Lawson... quit sulking, it's just one tune. Like someone said, you did more than fine on the last one.

It's a different kind of music is all. It's not like it's

GM7 Em Am D7

Or even

GM7 E7 A7 D7

Well, actually it is if you tritone it a bit

GM7 Bb7 Eb7 D7

Well, okay, change that middle chord there

GM7 Bb7 EbM7 D7

Then do the frigging thing in 3/4 waltz time just to mess with people's sanity...

It's maybe a bit late now but what you've got here is disparate bits of sound. The G bit... the Ebm7/Ab7 bit... the E7 and F7 bit... and the G bit again. Just play something over them, it doesn't matter.

Don't try to approach it like a standard tune, beginning, middle and ending. Realise from the start it's not going to be like that. It'll still be bloody irritating but it'll ease the pain

OR

you say 'not my kind of music' and forget it. Do something else. Personally I don't let it beat me but I'm tenacious that way.

**lawson-stone** · 02-23-2021, 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Okay, Lawson... quit sulking, it's just one tune. Like someone said, you did more than fine on the last one.

It's a different kind of music is all. It's not like it's

GM7 Em Am D7

Or even

GM7 E7 A7 D7

Well, actually it is if you tritone it a bit

GM7 Bb7 Eb7 D7

Well, okay, change that middle chord there

GM7 Bb7 EbM7 D7

Then do the frigging thing in 3/4 waltz time just to mess with people's sanity...

It's maybe a bit late now but what you've got here is disparate bits of sound. The G bit... the Ebm7/Ab7 bit... the E7 and F7 bit... and the G bit again. Just play something over them, it doesn't matter.

Don't try to approach it like a standard tune, beginning, middle and ending. Realise from the start it's not going to be like that. It'll still be bloody irritating but it'll ease the pain

OR

you say 'not my kind of music' and forget it. Do something else. Personally I don't let it beat me but I'm tenacious that way.

I wish I had a canoe oar to stir all that with...

Not sulking, just reconsidering the nature of my associations.

**ragman1** · 02-23-2021, 10:38 PM

By the way, I haven't changed my mind from what I said before. Wayne is definitely on intravenous magic fairy dust and to the average musical practitioner his stuff is incohesive, frustrating, and all the rest of it.

But it is what it is and he's got an embarrassing raft of awards to prove it.

Wayne Shorter - Wikipedia

**ragman1** · 02-23-2021, 10:41 PM

retaining the nature of my associations

Ah, there you are. Excellent. Good whatever-it-is near you :-)

**ragman1** · 02-23-2021, 10:53 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I haven't played with humans in 13 months

I'm not human. Any more.

**mr. beaumont** · 02-23-2021, 10:56 PM

Rag, you act like Wayne is friggin' Peter Brotzman.

Maybe we'll have to do this one in the future...one of the most beautiful jazz tunes ever.

**ragman1** · 02-23-2021, 11:57 PM

This sort of pretentious, indulgent crap?*

At least Wayne can write a tune.

I was listening to Infant Eyes the other day. I got the lead sheet out. Strange thing. I did it too.

You know, I had an insight into ND before it happened. I not only felt the next tune was going to be a waltz but I was going to write 'a blue waltz' in the post. Strange thing.

*I'm not allowed to say that.

**kris** · 02-24-2021, 02:23 AM

This whole discussion is embarrassing, but it's a shame.
You sit at home, you can use the Internet. Nobody knows if you have a Real Book or other books in front of you. These are comfortable conditions for a virtual jam. There are no such venues in the real jam.Play next tune!

**christianm77** · 02-24-2021, 04:46 AM

Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive

Perhaps Night Dreamer is a type of tune that hard to dig if you dont have a rock side in you. I mean, to me you have to like rock music to see the textural opportunity it offers. Straight ahead jazz approach does create cognitive dissonance lol. If I had to play it on archtop with clean tone or something I would not enjoy playing it at all. Jazz rock fusion is a thing though, worth look into.

Textural approach is great btw. I recently was hungry for some Vernon Reid style soloing. Speed can be a texture. Some call it umusical and garbage, but I think I prefer that to virtuoso display in classical tradition. And of course no one cancel the distortion sound yet, or any other guitar effects. It's all fun. Plus I'm stuck with a tele, no archtops around.

with the Tenor sax and the big tone you can get with one there are ideas like the ones Wayne is playing that simply don’t work with a clean archtop. Something about the instrument forces you to be more harmonic and changes oriented. And more laid back as well I find. Which is fine for a certain type of gig and band.

If you need a ‘weight of sound’; distorted electric can give you that. And some ambience on the tone. (Chorus too actually although everyone hates that now haha.)

That’s how I tend to use it in jazz. I tend to avoid bending and vibrato etc though (unless I really am ‘rocking out’ lol). I’m aiming more for a sax like sound.

Tele can sound a bit thin though. My ES175 sounds immense through a tube screamer

**dot75** · 02-24-2021, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by ragman1

By the way, I haven't changed my mind from what I said before. Wayne is definitely on intravenous magic fairy dust and to the average musical practitioner his stuff is incohesive, frustrating, and all the rest of it.

But it is what it is and he's got an embarrassing raft of awards to prove it.

Wayne Shorter - Wikipedia

This stuff is above my paygrade but I've just listened to Herbie Hancock read his autobiography (audible freebie).

Miles' comment at one session was along the lines of 'mofo - I swear you write this shit just to piss me off'