JGBE Virtual Jam (Round 6) - Night Dreamer

**christianm77** · 02-25-2021, 05:28 AM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

I really can't shake the idea that if I'm in this group I need to do the tune. But as you know, I'm not totally comfortable, to say the least, with this. So here are two choruses but I really don't get this tune.

Maybe what I need to get REALLY angry at the tune, then play it as a kind of assault on it. Anger and hard-bop seem somehow to fit together.

Sounds good!

Hard bop needs a bit of vibe, a bit of grit.

**christianm77** · 02-25-2021, 05:32 AM

Another way of looking at that A section is that it’s half (well two thirds) of a Giant Steps

GS (in the same key)

G Bb7 Eb F#7 B D7

Night Dreamer
G Bb7 Eb D7

i don’t know if that makes it easier, but it means the tune is at least easier than Giant Steps haha

It also means that this tune might be a good halfway house to aim for before approaching Gs changes.

The difference is you can always play the blues scale on it... can’t do that on Coltrane changes!

**djg** · 02-25-2021, 06:04 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Another way of looking at that A section is that it’s half (well two thirds) of a Giant Steps

it's also the first half of "here's that rainy day" which shows you how far out those wayne shorter changes are...

**kris** · 02-25-2021, 06:12 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Another way of looking at that A section is that it’s half (well two thirds) of a Giant Steps

GS (in the same key)

G Bb7 Eb F#7 B D7

Night Dreamer
G Bb7 Eb D7

i don’t know if that makes it easier, but it means the tune is at least easier than Giant Steps haha

It also means that this tune might be a good halfway house to aim for before approaching Gs changes.

The difference is you can always play the blues scale on it... can’t do that on Coltrane changes!

You need to learn about the Giant Steps first to apply this idea, for non-advanced players this is hardly possible.
I avoid blues scale - it is too easy for me, although the effect can be impressive at times if you use the blues scale in a balanced way.

**kris** · 02-25-2021, 06:22 AM

There is another intersting idea taken from well known spanish progresion:
gm F/ Eb D.... can be Gmaj7 Fm/Ebmaj7D7
Very creative thinking...

**TOMMO** · 02-25-2021, 07:32 AM

I'm glad that you changed your mind, Lawson and gave that tune a try. Turned out to be a fine one to boot!

**grahambop** · 02-25-2021, 10:14 AM

Seeing all this controversy, I thought I'd better have a go! I just simplify this tune to 4 chords: G(m), Ab7, Bm, Cm. Actually the hardest bit was playing the melody, trying to get the rhythms correct on that middle bit.

**mr. beaumont** · 02-25-2021, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by grahambop

Seeing all this controversy, I thought I'd better have a go! I just simplify this tune to 4 chords: G(m), Ab7, Bm, Cm. Actually the hardest bit was playing the melody, trying to get the rhythms correct on that middle bit.

Sounds great! And proof you can make this work with a "traditional" jazz tone-- as long as your feel is right (and yours definitely is)

**christianm77** · 02-25-2021, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by kris

You need to learn about the Giant Steps first to apply this idea, for non-advanced players this is hardly possible.
I avoid blues scale - it is too easy for me, although the effect can be impressive at times if you use the blues scale in a balanced way.

Wayne uses the pentatonic, so *shrug*

I don’t see why you have to learn Giant Steps first. Learn ND first, and then complete the giant steps cycle later.

put a modified version of the ND progression in G/Eb and Eb/B and you’ve broken the back of Giant Steps.

D7 G Bb7 Eb
Bb7 Eb F#7 B

everything else is easy (2 5 1s) after that

**christianm77** · 02-25-2021, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by grahambop

Seeing all this controversy, I thought I'd better have a go! I just simplify this tune to 4 chords: G(m), Ab7, Bm, Cm. Actually the hardest bit was playing the melody, trying to get the rhythms correct on that middle bit.

Well there you go

Note that Wayne has Bb on the G chord in the melody as well. So that’s how he heard it. And then there’s the solo.

but I’m sure theorists know how to play his music better than he does. The chord scale police would have arrested Wayne long ago.

BTW that backing track is a bit much. Is it an Aebersold?

**christianm77** · 02-25-2021, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by kris

There is another intersting idea taken from well known spanish progresion:
gm F/ Eb D.... can be Gmaj7 Fm/Ebmaj7D7
Very creative thinking...

Yeah that’s what I mean by Chaconne. But it’s the same thing as the Andalusian cadence to use a fancy name. Or the descending tetrachord often seen in Baroque music.

Also ‘Hit the Road Jack’

Its very cool

Giant steps/26-2 etc extends the bassline into a full whole tone scale

**mr. beaumont** · 02-25-2021, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

BTW that backing track is a bit much. Is it an Aebersold?

I don't know who made it, but it's one of the only ones that sounds ok on YouTube.

I took my solo over what would be the melody, because yeah, once you get to the solo section on this track, Mr. piano player is getting LOUD. But i dunno, i kinda like that.

**christianm77** · 02-25-2021, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by djg

it's also the first half of "here's that rainy day" which shows you how far out those wayne shorter changes are...

True! I knew I’d missed something obvious.

It’s also a common turnaround. Gershwin uses it in Bess You are my Woman Now IIRC

**christianm77** · 02-25-2021, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I don't know who made it, but it's one of the only ones that sounds ok on YouTube.

I took my solo over what would be the melody, because yeah, once you get to the solo section on this track, Mr. piano player is getting LOUD. But i dunno, i kinda like that.

Its good practice to play with a piano player who feels compelled to play ALL THE NOTES. Plenty of those at jams.

TBF it’s hard to accompany a solo that isn’t there, even the for best in the business. If I was cutting a backing track record I’d get them to accompany a pre recorded solo on cans and cut it out

**christianm77** · 02-25-2021, 10:47 AM

The other thing that perhaps changes things is how low in the ‘mix’ the piano is compared to the horns on those Blue Note albums*, so the pianists can really crash around and it sounds great. In fact they kind of need to... I find it tough with this backing track though.

*yes I’m aware it was basically one mic, live in the room, but you know what I mean, acoustic piano some way from the mic.

**TOMMO** · 02-25-2021, 11:06 AM

grahambop: excellent!

**kris** · 02-25-2021, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Wayne uses the pentatonic, so *shrug*

I don’t see why you have to learn Giant Steps first. Learn ND first, and then complete the giant steps cycle later.

put a modified version of the ND progression in G/Eb and Eb/B and you’ve broken the back of Giant Steps.

D7 G Bb7 Eb
Bb7 Eb F#7 B

everything else is easy (2 5 1s) after that

most important GS in 4/4 and ND is in 3/4.

**grahambop** · 02-25-2021, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Sounds great! And proof you can make this work with a "traditional" jazz tone-- as long as your feel is right (and yours definitely is)

Thanks Jeff. I kept thinking about how Wayne plays those wailing notes, plus the backing track is quite forceful (I do not mind that, it’s like playing with McCoy Tyner bashing away next to you!), all that just made me feel like digging in harder. I also added a touch of overdrive with a plugin, but it’s probably too subtle to notice.

**kris** · 02-25-2021, 11:33 AM

The first 4 chords is a kind of turnaround.
Gmaj7 Bb7/Ebmaj7 D7

turnaround Gmaj7 Bb7/Ebmaj7 Abmaj or Gmaj7 Bb7/Ebmaj7 Ab7

Blues scale/pentatonicks works nice over turnaronds .Look a 2 last bars of every blues tune.

**lawson-stone** · 02-25-2021, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by grahambop

Seeing all this controversy, I thought I'd better have a go! I just simplify this tune to 4 chords: G(m), Ab7, Bm, Cm. Actually the hardest bit was playing the melody, trying to get the rhythms correct on that middle bit.

Okay so now you have me wanting to learn the melody. It makes sense and sounds great the way you play it! That was a really helpful solo in focusing on the 4 chord centers you noted.

So... I'm really glad I worked on this tune after all. Vindicating the principle of trusting the judgement of my musical peers and tackling something I'm not initially attracted to.

Your clip here cements that!

**lawson-stone** · 02-25-2021, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Well there you go

Note that Wayne has Bb on the G chord in the melody as well. So that’s how he heard it. And then there’s the solo.

but I’m sure theorists know how to play his music better than he does. The chord scale police would have arrested Wayne long ago.

BTW that backing track is a bit much. Is it an Aebersold?

It's the backing track that Hal Leonard did to go with their updated Real Book series. Usually their tracks are based, sometimes loosely, on real performances. So "All of Me" is a direct clone of the Count Basie track on the Sinatra album.

**grahambop** · 02-25-2021, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Well there you go

Note that Wayne has Bb on the G chord in the melody as well. So that’s how he heard it. And then there’s the solo.

but I’m sure theorists know how to play his music better than he does. The chord scale police would have arrested Wayne long ago.

BTW that backing track is a bit much. Is it an Aebersold?

The backing is about the only decent one on youtube, it’s from a channel called ‘M2’, I think someone said they make the Hal Crook tracks too. I don’t mind the loud piano, probably made me play with more oomph!

All this made me go and listen to more Wayne stuff and I noticed how much he returns to pieces of the melody in a lot of his solos, a good approach to take.

(edit: I see Lawson said it was a Hal Leonard track.)

**kris** · 02-25-2021, 11:41 AM

Very intersting version of Bobby Watson ...29th Street Saxophone Quartet:

**grahambop** · 02-25-2021, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

Okay so now you have me wanting to learn the melody. It makes sense and sounds great the way you play it! That was a really helpful solo in focusing on the 4 chord centers you noted.

So... I'm really glad I worked on this tune after all. Vindicating the principle of trusting the judgement of my musical peers and tackling something I'm not initially attracted to.

Your clip here cements that!

Thanks Lawson. Actually I didn’t really like this tune much at first, I wasn’t going to play it, but all the discussion made me tackle the challenge, and I grew to like it more. But I did feel I had to play the melody because it creates a mood and helped me get into the solo.

By the way I thought your solo was very good, nothing wrong with it at all!