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Time for a waltz...a short but not so easy one.
This one was very tough for me. This is not a "the correct note is only one fret away" tune.
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02-18-2021 06:58 PM
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Great tune... And great take to bring us into round 6, Mr. B
A lot really crappy backing tracks if you want to solo over it.
This one comes close to the groove on the album:
Trick with a modern waltz like this or anything Wes is that 4 feel against 2 measures of 3/4
ONE and two AND three and ONE two AND three and
Try it. You often hear this in the drums. Wes was very to this as well. Peter Farrell hipped me to this in a video on how Wes feels 3/4 and 6/8. Peter has some great videos on feel and groove
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Yes! Though Farrell's way of counting doesn't work for my brain.
I'm a TRIP-l et-and TRIP l et-and kinda guy.
Jazz pocket is all about feeling 6 on 4 and 4 on 6.
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I found it easier to start with a waltz and play the chords in dotted quarters.
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
that's easy enough to hear and feel. When you get them both in mind, double up on the dotted quarters (dotted eighths, but don't think about that, just double time it).
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I was pretty certain it would be a waltz this time but it looks interesting.
For those (like me) who don't know it:
Jeff - does this RB sheet pass the test for you? Chords okay?
Here's the original in any case. It's the and-1 2 3 that does it. And the head's repeated twice (for Alter) :-)
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That'll work. Originally Posted by ragman1
I was pretty certain it would be a waltz this time but it looks interesting.
For those (like me) who don't know it:
Jeff - does this RB sheet pass the test for you? Chords okay?
Here's the original in any case. It's the and-1 2 3 that does it. And the head's repeated twice (for Alter) :-)
You'll see, its not a "follow the changes" tune, really.
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I bet :-) Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I don't think I'll change the rhythm in the middle...
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I might have to post another one if the balance ain't right.
Really hard to gauge, one backing track is too loud another is too soft...
And I can't wake up my toddler daughter upstairs
Anyway, hopefully you can all hear some (headphones might help with this take)
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Why you guys choose such weird tunes lol... Why not The Jitterbug Waltz for instance? Beautiful waltz....This kind of tunes you just wanna play over and hope to survive. But ok, fkit, I'll try.
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This one is better balanced...
Plus, Mr. B might like the title
I got a pickguard and changed strings. Might be a little clangy, but once they are broken in... love this weird mixed string set of mine
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I do love to Jitter n' Bugs:
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This is the Comins GCS-1, ME80 (adding reverb and nothing else) and Little Jazz. IRealpro backing track played, not quite loud enough, thru a KC150.
A few words about process. I'm curious about how others approach a tune and I figured, I'll go first.
I don't recall hearing or playing this tune. So, I listened to what I think is the original version on youtube and I got the RealBook chart. I played the chords a few times (the piano voicings in the chart turned out to be playable, with some stretching, on guitar). I tried scatting a solo, but didn't come up with much. So, I took a look at the chords.
The Gmaj7 Fm7 Ebmaj7 Dalt, sounded bluesy to me, but that Gmaj7 (rather than Gm there) keeps it from being Hit The Road Jack. It occured to me to think about it as all I V. The idea there was that the Gmaj7 is the tonic and all the others are subs for Dalt. I considered Fm7. F Ab C Eb, all within Dalt. Then Eb G Bb D -- the G isn't in Dalt but I'm generally more willing to adjust a note or two by ear than to learn a new scale.
I ended up thinking this progression is G tonal center then Ab tonal center. And, what you hear is based on the idea that all I needed to do was play on G and then go up a half step. That freed me up a bit to focus on trying to make a melody.
Next up is a ii V in Db. I did that by ear, but, thinking about it, since I was in Ab, the issue is lowering the G to Gb. That gives the b3 on the ii and the b7 on the V.
My ear couldn't really make much sense of the E13sus and F13sus. The first one is E A B D C#. A tonal center sounded ok. The next chord is another "half step up" change and I didn't think of a clever way to play it. It occurred to me that the tune is about half step changes.
Then back to the original 2 bar sequence (with an error in the Irealpro chart which I couldn't figure out how to fix, so I left it -- it's not very audible.
I'm not happy with what I recorded but I had to admit to myself that I can't really play it much better. I'm working on being more precise with the sound of the instrument, the timing of the notes and how clearly I articulate the notes. All of this is a work in progress.
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RP,
Can I challenge you to identify elements in your solo that you liked?
I heard some hip stuff, but identifying your strengths is part of the journey.
Be specific. We sweat the details when it's stuff we don't like in our playing.
Sweat the details of what you already like--isolate those nuances--and build on that as well.
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rp -
I've got as far as the melody so far and I haven't got the twiddles quite right but they'll do, probably. I'm normally quite quick at scoping out tunes but this one'll take getting into. And I'm loathe to commit myself till I think I've got it. Or something like it. Sax players we're not :-)
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I'd have a much easier time listing the stuff I don't like, but here goes. Originally Posted by PickingMyEars
Much of the solo has the 8th notes played, to my ear, in time. That is, neither rushed nor behind. I work on that, so when it comes out okay, I'm happy. I'm aware that there were some flubs, but that's not what this post is about.
I'm always trying to put emotion into a solo, and I often hear that in rapidly ascending non-scalar lines. There are a couple in there.
Last chorus gets sparse. I'm always trying to use silence as a voice in a solo and to avoid noodling. I'm happy when I succeed at that. It creates a more singable line, which is another goal.
Thanks for listening and thanks for the challenge to do this.
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Wayne tunes are often easier than they first appear. Often study of the melody reveals more than the study of the chords Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
Bill Frisell likes Jitterbug Waltz a lot. I’ve played it quite a few times on gigs. The head is quite tricky on guitar!
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Oh it’s a short duration chaconne. Never noticed that before
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Sounds like a tough one..
Jeff - I like the bluesy lines you put in there.
rp: nice melodic playing especially at the beginning - makes it sound easier than it probably is.
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OK, so notice how Wayne gets a lot of mileage from simple materials.
We take a whole G natural minor scale
G A Bb C D Eb F G
Chop it in half at the fifth
G A Bb C D Eb - melody
G F Eb D - Bass
Write a melody that goes up and down stepwise starting on the third in quarters against a step wise bass in dotted quarters.
Now - write a picardy third - B instead of Bb as the first note
Soloing wise - We move between the G major and minor keys
It's all in G minor except for that first chord, until we get to the big II-V and the surprise move to the tritone sub chord E7sus4, up a half step and back into the chaconne again. But you have two bars each on that stuff.
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Also Fsus4 = Eb/F, so we are back into the home tonality of Eb/Gm
In other words, the G major and E7sus4 are the chromatic chords in this progression. Everything else is diatonic to Gm.
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In fact I would play the first section as this
G (break) Cm7 Bb7 (Bo7) --> G
Or
G (break) Am7b5 D7b9 --> G
So basically a bit like Night and Day but faster and rhythmically displaced.
Wayne tunes are like logic puzzles. There's almost always a solution and it is almost always fair.
But often the best way to solve them is to listen to what Wayne himself plays on them.
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Not a bad start at all! There's this snakey descending thing you do about 1:30 that I'm definitely stealing. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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Lol, "Day Dreamer," perhaps. Originally Posted by PickingMyEars
This one is better balanced...
Plus, Mr. B might like the title
I got a pickguard and changed strings. Might be a little clangy, but once they are broken in... love this weird mixed string set of mine
Your posts are almost like an audio diary, which I dig...it's gutsy, putting it out there. I can literally hear you figuring out the tune as you go. In your first take, your first chorus, it was like you were testing out a few notes, to see where they worked and didn't...and then in your second, you start crafting real melody.
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Early thoughts...
This tune is sparking some good nuts and bolts conversation, which is cool. I figured it would.
Why not "Jitterbug Waltz?" Well, the whole point of this jam session (even though we did a Parker tune already) was to explore jazz that was a little less...1940's.
My approach was similar to what a few other people figured out.
The A section is G blues. You gotta watch that third a little...I kinda feel the "third" in that section of the tune lives between m3 and M3, so to speak.
There's that little ii V that you need to be aware of, but really we're just slipping up a half step there, briefly.
Then the 7sus chords. Ok, here's how I often hear those chords...they're ALL OVER jazz from the 60's and on, really...
E7sus... so that's E A B D, right? These always seem to suggest pentatonics to me...and because the A section was G blues, I figured why not stick with that idea...B minor pentatonic to C minor pent.
There's some other notes that work in there too, the 9th added to the pentatonic, for sure (so E13sus?) for example.
I think the tricky part of a tune like this is there's really a limited amount of notes that sound good to hang on at any given time.
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Chris'77's post really simplifies the tune, if you get past the Jean-Luc Picardy stuff
The first two solos I posted were my best effort to sound a little more like Wayne Shorter--conjure up that mojo. Always love the way that he solos. He's incredibly melodic, rhythmic, thematic, and dynamic--you hear the drama in everything he plays. He says the most with the least about of melodic/harmonic material--which is a hell of a lot harder than it seems.
Next up, I wanna dive into Lee Morgan's solo. I have 15 Lee Morgan led albums--they called him Morgan indeed. He's a fire cracker. Definitely rhythmic, but more funky. His lines here are busier than Wayne's, but non-the-less powerful.
And finally, don't you love "Etc's" solo McCoy loved to play on Blue Note even though he was mostly an Impulse guy at the time, me thinks. McCoy, what can you say about McCoy Tyner that hasn't already been said. Coltrane loved his playing. Hey Reggie and Elvin--aren't you supposed to be playing with Coltrane? That rhythm section... to get that rhythm section for one of your first albums, ya have to know your stuff (not very first, for that you have to dig Wayne playing bebop--also fine as satin).
RP, I really enjoyed your 8th note feel throughout. I heard more of the harmonic movement and melody in your solo than in mine. And you played the melody really grooving like--I tried to outro the melody on my second take and failed.
Mr. B, damn. Bluesy as all hell. Sounds as if Albert King befriended Wayne and got on the album. Those blues guys were no joke. Most of the uptown folk played with very hip horn sections. That said, B's solo still sounds like Wayne and describes the tune. All about that build
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Okie, here it is. The first take, and I did try a few. But the ones I thought was better sounded kinda contrived at the same time. Cant record too many on the same day I guess.
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Nice one Hep!
Bluesy approach just work great on this tune. No two ways about it.
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I hear ya...Shorter's stuff can be heavy.
But I have heard this tune called at a session, and my original intent was to focus on music that was a little more modern than a lot of the stuff folks talk about around here. And I do think this tune is accessible.
I'll be honest, I was a bit shocked people didn't know this song or Recorda Me or Beatrice...So I think these jams are good for opening people's ears to some new to them stuff.
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I knew Recordame because it's in the original Real Book. Often called at jams and gigs for that reason -- at the level I was playing at for quite some time. I recall hearing recordings of it too.
Beatrice isn't in that book and is newer to me. But, I play with a pianist who calls it.
I don't recall ever having heard Night Dreamer. TBH, I'm only beginning to appreciate Wayne Shorter's music. I recall trying to get into it years ago and moving on.
Thanks to all for the feedback and the discussion about how to approach the tune.
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It's very accessible. I've heard all of them at some point but I never played them. And you definitely don't know 'em till you try playing 'em. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I also think it's an error to over-simplify Shorter's stuff too. Not if you want to do them justice.
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Sink or swim! (as they say) Originally Posted by kris
Ragman, I liken Shorter's music to abstract art. People say, "I could do this." And they could. But they didn't
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Hi guys,
I have to toss a volley from the peanut gallery, just to say these posts are GREAT !
This one in particular, if someone handed me this lead sheet I may have said " I'll sit this one out". Seeing you guys break this down is extremely helpfull !
You're a bunch of very good players and I had to tell you that you may be doing more good than you know.
Cheers,
Mike
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Giving some more thought to the first two bars.
This is from the RB chart.
The lowest note in the chord voicings are as follows
Gmaj7 - G to F# (up a maj 7) in the bass. Lowest note in the treble clef chord is G. Scale, to my ear, G Ionian or G lydian.
Fm7 - G down to Bb. That makes the overall chord Abmaj7/G going to Bbsus13. Bb mixo, but let me call it Ebmajor for a moment.
This is interesting because the chord symbol is Fm7. The notes on the staff spell out Fm9/G and Fm9/Bb.
Ebmaj7 - Eb to F in the bass (up a 9th) with a Gm7 spelled out in the treble. So, the resulting chord is Ebmaj9. More Ebmajor.
Then D7#5#9, with the bass going from F# to D. The treble clef is F# Bb C F. That looks like Fsusb9/F# (which comes out of the Ebmelmin scale in the mini-theoretical lobe of my brain). Ebmaj can work, if you lower the G to Gb, which is Ebmelmin. An argument could be made for Ab13/D.
So, I end up with Gmajor, Ebmajor and Ebmel min.
But, knowing all that isn't all that helpful. The chords are moving too fast for me to think about individual scale choices and, for reasons which are frequently debated, the whole notion of individual scale choices is, arguably, a dead end street heading in the wrong direction.
But, knowing that three of the chords (not counting the Gmaj7) are all focused around an Eb scale, give or take a note, is helpful. All I have to do to avoid egregious clams is to think Gmajor. Then, for the next three chords, think Ebmajor and, when I get to the D7#5#9 remember to lower the G to Gb, which I can handle by ear.
When I recorded my clip, I hadn't thought it through that far. I think I realized that, if I started with a Gmajor triad, I could raise it to an Abmaj triad and sound like I knew what I was doing. I also realized that the same triad would give me #11 7 and b9 against D7. And, I played with those things in mind.
Upon further reflection, the same triad up a whole step gives Bb D F -- which are the top three notes in the chord spelled out in the chart.
And, then move it back down two frets to play Ab major triad against D7#5#9 and that will work.
With that much, I've got an idea for a little structure (same voicing of a triad in different harmonic contexts) and it's easy to play. I know the first one is over a G sort of tonal center and the others are over Eb something or other.
That's enough to avoid egregious clams while trying to make melody.
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This one is another of the very nice backing tracks produced by Hal Leonard to go with their revision of the Real Books. All of them hew pretty close to some well-known recording of the tunes. Originally Posted by PickingMyEars
Great tune... And great take to bring us into round 6, Mr. B
A lot really crappy backing tracks if you want to solo over it.
This one comes close to the groove on the album:
Trick with a modern waltz like this or anything Wes is that 4 feel against 2 measures of 3/4
ONE and two AND three and ONE two AND three and
Try it. You often hear this in the drums. Wes was very to this as well. Peter Farrell hipped me to this in a video on how Wes feels 3/4 and 6/8. Peter has some great videos on feel and groove
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And heeeerrreeeee's Johnny ....
Shorter plays G minor pentatonic riffs on this almost entirely. I'm happy to follow that lead, and also try to make it almost all little melodic cells and motifs. The part I find most tricky is hearing the Eb-/Ab7 change. Fun tune, but definitely a challenge to make it work quarantine style.
John
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I dunno, I think you're being a bit hard on yourself. This came out quite well. The rhythm and phrasing are tight, I like the way you vary it between shorter and longer figures, lines and cells. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
JohnLast edited by John A.; 02-19-2021 at 10:07 PM.
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Here I go! I LOVE Wayne Shorter's music and several of my original tunes reflect that! I had listened to Night Dreamer, but never played it... His tunes have such character and mood, I find they encourage improvisors to go beyond their usual devices.
This was recorded at a theater rehearsal studio with a bass player, and the Drum Genius app.
Last edited by Ronstuff; 02-19-2021 at 11:14 PM.
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Great touch and time-feel. So cool and laid back... I'm Jealous!!!!!!! Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Time for a waltz...a short but not so easy one.
This one was very tough for me. This is not a "the correct note is only one fret away" tune.
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Yeah! Some really great lines in there!
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Thanks, yea, I figured for this tune either that or sound modern dreamy which is def not my bag haha. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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A lot of theory talk, which helps to re conceptualize the tune for sure. Gave me new things to try out and mix into that stew
That said, this is hard bop at work by a genius of the genre. I'd love to just chat with Wayne Shorter, even if his chats become epics that Homer would be jealous of if he were still walking this mortal plain.
Blues. Modal. Complex. Yes.
But also, DRIVING. Art Blakey. Elvin, Elvin, ELVIN! The rhythm is a huge part of the hard bop idiom, in my mind. Maybe it's cause I have the same birth date as Max Roach, but man... what a difference great groove, rhythm, and time feel make. Melody and harmony start the story, but rhythm and feel sell the store--you know what I'm saying?
This tune is a great laboratory to work on phrasing. Build dynamics. Dig in. Make it groove while making it dance above the groove.
I love Sonny Stitt, Charlie Parker, and Bud Powell. But hard bop... I know I'm not alone here. Hard bop hits you in your gut while lifting your spirit. Extremely visceral yet inexplicably beautiful.
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Hard bop is my music. Theres nothing I'd rather listen to.
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As someone who used to chill with you, and talk your EARS off about ear training back in the day... Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
These tunes ARE your jam. Get into the rhythm and groove of these hard bop tunes. If we were playing these at a live session, you would be encouraged to reach back into that Psychobilly bag of tricks and drive the band. Then the band would drive you. Hard bop is all about the interaction... which we miss here unless we play with real people
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I've heard that Hard Bop is closer to Swing than Bebop.
You can dance to Art Blakey and Elvin. As beautiful as Bebop is, it's hard to dance to--but there is still a dance in that music as well. I say this as I continue to build my Rhythm Changes master playlist. 227 songs strong. A little over 20 hours worth. A lot of bop and swing in that playlist...
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The bluesy side of hard bop is what gets me the most, that Blakey back eat, Bobby Timmons, Lee Morgan, Wes. Call "Moanin'" at a jam and people start dancing, and shouting. Originally Posted by PickingMyEars
A lot of theory talk, which helps to re conceptualize the tune for sure. Gave me new things to try out and mix into that stew
That said, this is hard bop at work by a genius of the genre. I'd love to just chat with Wayne Shorter, even if his chats become epics that Homer would be jealous of if he were still walking this mortal plain.
Blues. Modal. Complex. Yes.
But also, DRIVING. Art Blakey. Elvin, Elvin, ELVIN! The rhythm is a huge part of the hard bop idiom, in my mind. Maybe it's cause I have the same birth date as Max Roach, but man... what a difference great groove, rhythm, and time feel make. Melody and harmony start the story, but rhythm and feel sell the store--you know what I'm saying?
This tune is a great laboratory to work on phrasing. Build dynamics. Dig in. Make it groove while making it dance above the groove.
I love Sonny Stitt, Charlie Parker, and Bud Powell. But hard bop... I know I'm not alone here. Hard bop hits you in your gut while lifting your spirit. Extremely visceral yet inexplicably beautiful.
John
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Very fine contributions from John and ronstuff, I enjoyed them both. Nice mixture of blues and modern sounds in your solo, John. Very relaxed playing in yours, ronstuff.
I'm with you there. Originally Posted by John A.
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since i'm not contributing i'll keep it short. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
to me the tune is an 8 bar blues. i count in 6/4. one turnaround is one bar. blues in G usually has Abm7 Db7 in bar 4 (see west coast blues), this one has Ebm7 Ab7. bar 5 to 8 are missing, it's straight to bar 9, the Bm and Cm replacing the IV and V chord and it's back to tonic. it's wayne's version of "all blues".Last edited by djg; 02-20-2021 at 08:58 AM.
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Ron, man sounds great...drumgenius with a real bassist makes for a great rhythm section. I like how you break out of the blues approach a lot of us are taking a bit, you sound hip, modern.
John I gotta admit, I was worried, because it seemed like you were rushing on the head, getting excited for what was coming, I guess! But then you settle in nicely during the solo. I really, really loved some of your faster bits over the sus chords...thats the "build tension" point in the form and you sure did. How did you think about them??
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I dig hard bop, Horace Silver compositions are my favorite. To me a big appeal of this style- catchy heads, usually. I do like bebop more as a language than actual music. Sorry to say, bebop heads are mostly scholar material for me. Hard bop is of course bebop in its core, but plus blues, plus better thought out arrangements, better recordings too. I think it's a natural evolution. Originally Posted by PickingMyEars
As someone who used to chill with you, and talk your EARS off about ear training back in the day...
These tunes ARE your jam. Get into the rhythm and groove of these hard bop tunes. If we were playing these at a live session, you would be encouraged to reach back into that Psychobilly bag of tricks and drive the band. Then the band would drive you. Hard bop is all about the interaction... which we miss here unless we play with real people Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I've heard that Hard Bop is closer to Swing than Bebop.
You can dance to Art Blakey and Elvin. As beautiful as Bebop is, it's hard to dance to--but there is still a dance in that music as well. I say this as I continue to build my Rhythm Changes master playlist. 227 songs strong. A little over 20 hours worth. A lot of bop and swing in that playlist...
But this Wayne Shorter's one is a bit of modal jazz too, am I wrong?
Btw, special request for future jams, Horace Silver? (Nica's Dream!!!)
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I did rush the head a little, especially the last 4 bars. I haven't got that part completely burned into muscle memory/feel. Also, I had spent a good bit of time trying different ways to record playing through an amp, none of which sounded any good. So I went back to doing everything "in the box". At that point I was kind of sick of playing the head and didn't give it proper care, but I feel like I need it to set up a solo. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
For my first solo chorus I was pretty much trying to channel what Shorter does - pentatonic licks over the vamp, something transitional on the Ebmin Ab7 change, pedal point on the 7sus chords, turnaround. On the sus chords he does these false fingering licks and I had it in mind to try to play something kind of like that. The actual notes weren't planned out, but the shape of it was.
The later choruses were less specific. For those I was basically trying motifs moving them around as I heard them, trying to be conscious of varying fast and slow bits and play phrases rather than just a stream of notes. I wasn't thinking much about the harmony.
John
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yea cool tune. It's interesting all these tune are like from when I was a kid. I played them in late 60's and 70's.
( back when I has some chops) . Anyway... Shorter composes in Blocks of sound and then used basic expanded Function.
By that I mean, we all know understand the Tonic and Dominant thing right, V I and all the versions of. When we get into Modal and expanded Functional movement.... (sorry trying to keep it simple). Anyway Modal Function is almost always Subdominant and Tonic. And what you get is more choices of using Relative relationships with modal function.
Try just playing E-pentatonic and Cmi dorian over the two bar chord pattern.
Gma7 F-7 / Ebma7 D7#9. becomes...
E-7, Pent. to / C-7 dorian
Which is also the B section. I know this isn't the place but, understanding modal functional devices and then adding Blue notes and MM is a large part of the jazz language for the last 50 60 years. I understand you can still spell changes and use major functional organization, arpeggios.... with embellishments....but if you want to get out of the vanilla framework, there are possible approaches.
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