JGBE Virtual Jam (Round 6) - Night Dreamer

**mr. beaumont** · 02-23-2021, 08:53 AM

Y'all are gonna burn out on Nica before we even play it.

Re: learning something new, hey its a jam session...sometimes you know the tune.

**kris** · 02-23-2021, 09:41 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Y'all are gonna burn out on Nica before we even play it.

Re: learning something new, hey its a jam session...sometimes you know the tune.

sometimes?
In fact, in a real jam, the musicians participating should know the piece well.

**mr. beaumont** · 02-23-2021, 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by kris

sometimes?
In fact, in a real jam, the musicians participating should know the piece well.

At a good jam, yes

Of course in the real deal, its also cool to sit out when you don't know the tune. Here, nah. Take a chance.

**kris** · 02-23-2021, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

At a good jam, yes

Of course in the real deal, its also cool to sit out when you don't know the tune. Here, nah. Take a chance.

As I see it, it will be a good jam because most known to Nica's Dream.

**Hep To The Jive** · 02-23-2021, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by kris

sometimes?
In fact, in a real jam, the musicians participating should know the piece well.

Ha, in fact sometimes you don't know the piece well not even on a jam, but on a gig too! That's why God gave us ears, hopefully them navigate us well out of trouble

**mr. beaumont** · 02-23-2021, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive

Ha, in fact sometimes you don't know the piece well not even on a jam, but on a gig too! That's why God gave us ears, hopefully them navigate us well out of trouble

Indeed...and really, the best way to not sink in those situations is to know a bunch of tunes...the more tunes you know, the better chance you have making it through one you don't.

**ragman1** · 02-23-2021, 12:08 PM

You're talking about Nica's Dream because nobody here, including me, can play Night Dreamer. The only version worth talking about is the Shorter original and even then there's a lot of bravura playing covering up a multitude of sins. Professional band, good players, catchy rhythm, pentatonics, lots of flash and polish... but there's nothing on You Tube or Spotify that even comes close. No one else can really make it mean anything, including the professionals.

It's not a rock blues, it's supposed to be hard bop. Fact is, it's disconnected and counter-intuitive. The brain's trying to find logical and musical coherence where there isn't any. Personally, I felt stupid trying to make sense of it. Wayne Shorter was really a bit unhinged and I guess his stuff echoed that.

But Nica's Dream, nice latin/swing tune. Melodious, pleasant, and does just what you want a good tune to do. It may have been written after 1940, etc, but it's as good as any of those kinds of tune, or vice versa. Just a good Latin dance tune, or sounds like it. Thank god! We can play it!

So we're mightily relieved, if truth be told, and running like hell away from the other one. No one understands it because it's crazy.

Go ahead, tell me I'm a bad person, I can take it :-)

**kris** · 02-23-2021, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Indeed...and really, the best way to not sink in those situations is to know a bunch of tunes...the more tunes you know, the better chance you have making it through one you don't.

+1

**lawson-stone** · 02-23-2021, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

You're talking about Nica's Dream because nobody here, including me, can play Night Dreamer. The only version worth talking about is the Shorter original and even then there's a lot of bravura playing covering up a multitude of sins. Professional band, good players, catchy rhythm, pentatonics, lots of flash and polish... but there's nothing on You Tube or Spotify that even comes close. No one else can really make it mean anything, including the professionals.

It's not a rock blues, it's supposed to be hard bop. Fact is, it's disconnected and counter-intuitive. The brain's trying to find logical and musical coherence where there isn't any. Personally, I felt stupid trying to make sense of it. Wayne Shorter was really a bit unhinged and I guess his stuff echoed that.

But Nica's Dream, nice latin/swing tune. Melodious, pleasant, and does just what you want a good tune to do. It may have been written after 1940, etc, but it's as good as any of those kinds of tune, or vice versa. Just a good Latin dance tune, or sounds like it. Thank god! We can play it!

So we're mightily relieved, if truth be told, and running like hell away from the other one. No one understands it because it's crazy.

Go ahead, tell me I'm a bad person, I can take it :-)

I'm relieved that someone else had the same feeling. I know Wayne Shorter is supposed to be a genius and all, but honestly, Night Dreamer is probably one possible answer to the question "Why did people stop listening to jazz?"

**kris** · 02-23-2021, 12:44 PM

Night Dreamer is a great tune written by great W.Shorter!

**djg** · 02-23-2021, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

Night Dreamer is probably one possible answer to the question "Why did people stop listening to jazz?"

if night dreamer with elvin jones, lee morgan, and mccoy tyner made people stop listening to jazz, maybe they didn't like it very much in the first place.

**kris** · 02-23-2021, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by kris

Night Dreamer is a great tune written by great W.Shorter!

After the applause you can see that nobody wants to hear it.

**mr. beaumont** · 02-23-2021, 01:21 PM

Wow, I don't know what to say...

To me, Night Dreamer-- the whole album-- is an important work in jazz history, an early example of the type of music that would influence jazz for the next 50-60 years.

I honestly thought it was a record like Kind of Blue, or Maiden Voyage-- one every jazz fan owned and loved.

I guess I gotta get out more!

**lawson-stone** · 02-23-2021, 01:38 PM

I guess Rags and I are the heretics in the group!

But sometimes it's better to be a heretic than an Inquisitor.

**ragman1** · 02-23-2021, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by djg

if night dreamer with elvin jones, lee morgan, and mccoy tyner made people stop listening to jazz, maybe they didn't like it very much in the first place.

Agreed, that's one of the better ones. Still a lot of mad crazy pentatonic bashing though :-)

**grahambop** · 02-23-2021, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Wow, I don't know what to say...

To me, Night Dreamer-- the whole album-- is an important work in jazz history, an early example of the type of music that would influence jazz for the next 50-60 years.

I honestly thought it was a record like Kind of Blue, or Maiden Voyage-- one every jazz fan owned and loved.

I guess I gotta get out more!

Must admit I tend to think of Speak No Evil as Wayne Shorter’s more influential album, some very memorable tunes on that one.

**ragman1** · 02-23-2021, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Wow, I don't know what to say...

To me, Night Dreamer-- the whole album-- is an important work in jazz history, an early example of the type of music that would influence jazz for the next 50-60 years.

I honestly thought it was a record like Kind of Blue, or Maiden Voyage-- one every jazz fan owned and loved.

I guess I gotta get out more!

Everybody should get out more :-)

No, you shouldn't take this personally, I'd never do that. It's a challenging tune, which I'd say was good for us. In its way :-)

**mr. beaumont** · 02-23-2021, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by grahambop

Must admit I tend to think of Speak No Evil as Wayne Shorter’s more influential album, some very memorable tunes on that one.

Definitely...but I treat the whole stretch of Night Dreamer, Speak, Juju, even Adam's Apple and the All Seeing Eye as totally essential.

**John A.** · 02-23-2021, 02:07 PM

OK, so you go to a jam session, and somebody calls "Night Dreamer" or some other not-obvious-how-to-play-it and/or outside(ish) tune. First, let's understand that this is a real-world phenomenon that happens. What do you do? Here are some options

1. Complain about the tune, express disbelief that anyone actually likes it or can play, and try to prevent anyone else from playing it
2. Say it's not your kind of tune, sit out, and say you'll play the next one
3. Brazenly claim you know, and then proceed to spew seafood.
4. Say that you don't know it, and it's unfamiliar ground to you, but will give it a shot
5. Go to a different jam.

Let's just say all have their plusses and minuses. I've seen all in action, to varying effects Number 4 is my go-to, but I'll sometimes go with 2. The problem with 2 is you may not get up again and/or people will keep calling tunes you hate.

John

**kris** · 02-23-2021, 02:12 PM

Gentlemen, writing very strange things about Night Dreamer, I do not know why they provoke the playing musicians.Perhaps this is the result of a lack of factual criticism.

**mr. beaumont** · 02-23-2021, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by John A.

OK, so you go to a jam session, and somebody calls "Night Dreamer" or some other not-obvious-how-to-play-it and/or outside(ish) tune. First, let's understand that this is a real-world phenomenon that happens. What do you do? Here are some options

1. Complain about the tune, express disbelief that anyone actually likes it or can play, and try to prevent anyone else from playing it
2. Say it's not your kind of tune, sit out, and say you'll play the next one
3. Brazenly claim you know, and then proceed to spew seafood.
4. Say that you don't know it, and it's unfamiliar ground to you, but will give it a shot
5. Go to a different jam.

Let's just say all have their plusses and minuses. I've seen all in action, to varying effects Number 4 is my go-to, but I'll sometimes go with 2. The problem with 2 is you may not get up again and/or people will keep calling tunes you hate.

John

It'd be a bit of a jagoff tune to call if you didn't know the musicians/whether or not they could play it, really.

**ragman1** · 02-23-2021, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by John A.

OK, so you go to a jam session, and somebody calls "Night Dreamer" or some other not-obvious-how-to-play-it and/or outside(ish) tune. First, let's understand that this is a real-world phenomenon that happens. What do you do? Here are some options

1. Complain about the tune, express disbelief that anyone actually likes it or can play, and try to prevent anyone else from playing it
2. Say it's not your kind of tune, sit out, and say you'll play the next one
3. Brazenly claim you know, and then proceed to spew seafood.
4. Say that you don't know it, and it's unfamiliar ground to you, but will give it a shot
5. Go to a different jam.

Let's just say all have their plusses and minuses. I've seen all in action, to varying effects Number 4 is my go-to, but I'll sometimes go with 2. The problem with 2 is you may not get up again and/or people will keep calling tunes you hate.

John

You left out: or you play it!

**ragman1** · 02-23-2021, 02:26 PM

As a matter of fact I like the complete album as a whole. And the others. As Jeff said, it's pretty essential listening if that's your bag.

**djg** · 02-23-2021, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

It'd be a bit of a jagoff tune to call if you didn't know the musicians/whether or not they could play it, really.

it's a great troll tune at sessions. make sure to be the last soloist and just wail the blues after everyone sounded miserable trying to make the changes.

**PickingMyEars** · 02-23-2021, 03:00 PM

I love Wayne Shorter's compositions. I love Horace Silver's compositions. I love Benny Golson's compositions.

I also love standards. Satin Doll is a beautiful tune as is Body and Soul.

I am not a fan of Joe Pass's playing. Comping, yes. Single line stuff... doesn't do it for me. I've avoided certain Oscar Peterson albums because of Joe Pass's playing... I know, I sound horrible. I prefer Herb Ellis. I also dislike Pat Metheny's playing, but we aren't going there again

I do like it when he plays straight ahead bebop acoustically though. Grant Green, love him. Wes, love him. Jimmy Raney, love him. Billy Bean, wish there was more of him to listen to--love his stuff! Billy Butler and Bill Jennings... wish I discovered them sooner for myself. LOVE THEM

Everyone is entitled to their own likes and dislikes. Makes jazz interesting.

As Mr. B knows, I also love old school hip hop--especially A Tribe Called Quest. I hope my likes all show up in my playing. One of my jazz heroes once told me that he could hear more about a musician in the first measure of a melody or solo than he could from a whole essay of explanation.

For me, that means more playing and less essaying

One day I'll follow my own advice