Improvising in a trio

[Nylonstring]

One of my ambitions is to play in a Charlie Byrd type trio (since I play on a classical guitar). I've been working on polyphonic improvisation now for a few years, and that's slowly coming along. But another skill I would like to develop is improvising single lines interspersed with chord punches or chord fragments to support the harmony. Earl Klugh, for instance, is one of the best I've ever seen at this during those rare instances when he plays in a trio format. I'm trying to come up with exercises for developing this, but so far all I've been able to think of is to intentionally shorten the line and try to put a chord punch at every -- or every other -- change. I've found this devilishly hard to do after all the years I spent trying to play fluidly "through" the changes. I've search high and low on the web and come to the conclusion that there is zero instruction out there on how to play in a trio format. Have any of you guys worked on this and come up with ways to develop this skill systematically?

Here's a video of Earl playing the Monk tune Bye Ya in a trio context to illustrate what I'm talking about.

[whiskey02]

Though not a style that I have much experience in, I would suggest beginning by playing maybe 2 measures of single note lines followed by 2 measures of comping. When that becomes comfortable, switch every other measure. Once you can do that, I'd think it would be easy to punch in a chord or more likely a chord fragment, when and where you like.

[richb2]

I love the way Earl Klugh plays. Thanks for posting that!

[Nylonstring]

Me too, Rich. As a matter of fact I consider Earl to be my number one influence these days. His 3 solo recordings and the Earl Klugh Trio Vol. 1 are in almost constant rotation in the CD player of my car.

[christianm77]

One of my ambitions is to play in a Charlie Byrd type trio (since I play on a classical guitar). I've been working on polyphonic improvisation now for a few years, and that's slowly coming along. But another skill I would like to develop is improvising single lines interspersed with chord punches or chord fragments to support the harmony. Earl Klugh, for instance, is one of the best I've ever seen at this during those rare instances when he plays in a trio format. I'm trying to come up with exercises for developing this, but so far all I've been able to think of is to intentionally shorten the line and try to put a chord punch at every -- or every other -- change. I've found this devilishly hard to do after all the years I spent trying to play fluidly "through" the changes. I've search high and low on the web and come to the conclusion that there is zero instruction out there on how to play in a trio format. Have any of you guys worked on this and come up with ways to develop this skill systematically?

Here's a video of Earl playing the Monk tune Bye Ya in a trio context to illustrate what I'm talking about.

I know what you mean!

I like Hal Galper's statement that you first learn to play everything you hear, and then have to learn how to edit most of it out. Except, in this case, you are trying to be two instruments interweaving.

You cna do things like, playing 4s and 8s with yourselfm alternating lines and chords. The next step after that is to play irregular bar numbers 3s, 5s etc through the form.

I can't say I've mastered this at all. It's easiest for me on mid tempo tunes.

Thanks for the link!

[destinytot]

This looks interesting to me:
Tim Lerch - The Art of Two Note Accompaniment | Jazz Guitar Society

[grahambop]

I'm not much good at this, but what I do is try to play short phrases off the chord forms. In other words, try to keep visualising the chords on the fretboard, and don't stray too far from them when playing single note lines.

Very simple chord forms which you can grab quickly are useful e.g. bar forms such as minor 7 or Dom 9. Also rootless forms are probably easiest.

You're right, this a great skill to develop. I keep meaning to work on it more often!

[Nylonstring]

I agree. Metheny sounds great. However, I have serious doubts that his approach here would work on a classical guitar played fingerstyle...certainly not by me.

[voxss]

anyone know what Earl is playing.....love that nylon string sound on the single notes

[Cunamara]

There is a nice performance of the Horace Silver tune Lonely Woman by Pat Metheny on YouTube with Christian McBride on bass where he does more of this kind of self-comping. Man, I really dig how CM plays bass. You can also compare it to Pat's earlier recording from (I think) Rejoicing.

also, check out Gene Bertoncini who is a master of this and pretty much the rest of playing jazz on a guitar; he recently published a book of his arrangements which ought to put some of it under your fingers pretty quickly. And Ed Bickert would be a good role model, a lot of his stuff would transfer directly to nylon string very well.

[jasaco]

What am I hearing at 0:50 - 0:51 seconds? A very high-pitched, ascending slur, well out of the range of the guitar... ?

[pamosmusic]

I play in a trio frequently and I'm still trying to figure it out. I definitely think the idea of forcing yourself to alternate chords and single notes in an arbitrary way is cool. Do it in position or on string sets so youre working on fluidity rather than just using the same chords all the time. Don't forget to actually play some and just comp for yourself and try to be musical sometimes too.

work on diads and three note voicings!!! Smaller the better. After that drop 2s are huge too.

as for listening ... Ed Bickert is a masterclass in trio playing. Lots of lazy tempos so it's easy to hear what he's doing. Tons of small voicings. Got his own thing but I think just about anyone would agree that his is sort of a quintessential "jazz" sort of trio guitar. Really great stuff

[mr. beaumont]

What am I hearing at 0:50 - 0:51 seconds? A very high-pitched, ascending slur, well out of the range of the guitar... ?

flexatone!

[Nylonstring]

anyone know what Earl is playing.....love that nylon string sound on the single notes

Earl has a huge collection (over 50) of classical guitars built by the best luthiers in the world. He has played some of those on his last two solo recordings. But on the road these days he plays Paul McGill guitars. He also played a McGill guitar on his first solo album, and on the Earl Klugh Trio Vol. 1 album. Concerning Earl's tone...well, it's just the best IMHO. His recorded acoustic tone is the benchmark as far as I'm concerned. I prefer it to many of the finest classical masters.

[Nylonstring]

I'm familiar with all the great players mentioned, and I've been listening to all these guys for many, many years. Unfortunately I have not been able to acquire their skills by listening to them. And as I said before, I've not been able to find ANY instructional material on trio playing. So I'm just searching for some perspective from someone who's come through the process. Just looking for some tips on a systematic way to develop these skills.

[pamosmusic]

I'm familiar with all the great players mentioned, and I've been listening to all these guys for many, many years. Unfortunately I have not been able to acquire their skills by listening to them. And as I said before, I've not been able to find ANY instructional material on trio playing. So I'm just searching for some perspective from someone who's come through the process. Just looking for some tips on a systematic way to develop these skills.

So you're talking about specific specific skills. Then the biggest thing is facility with chords. The more freedom you have with chords the more chords you'll be able to throw into your single note lines (meaning you won't have to wait for your line to drift back to an area where you know that GMaj7 voicing or whatever). So chord scales are dull - but great practice.

Drop 2 voicings in all inversions all all three strings sets up and down. Ascending and descending in thirds and fourths. Make up little side slipping type exercises to do with them as you move up and down. Start with major but don't ignore melodic minor or harmonic minor (I'm guilty of ignoring that last one).

Triads in all inversions and in closed and spread positions on all the string sets. Same exercises as the drop 2s

Quartal triads all the same.

Go through tunes and play only the third and seventh of each chord as a diad.

Play double stops (thirds, sixths, sevenths, fourths, fifths, seconds) through chord scales the same way

Be creative with how you sneak through those little chord scales. It's pure finger practice but making it musical never hurts.

Apply all of the above to tunes. I've been practicing all that stuff for years but I still get put it over a tune for shit when i don't know the tune well enough.




Listening is for TASTE not facility - unless of course that listening is followed by transcribing.

[pamosmusic]

And as an aside to that "taste" part - you learn the shit out of tons and tons of chords but with drums and bass space is very very good. If you want to play a long melody note and just let it hang there's no reason not to. Drums and bass will be happy to pick up the slack. It's just better to make that a musical choice rather than a technical necessity.

[sgcim]

Lenny Breau has some great ideas in his book, "Fingerstyle Jazz".

[destinytot]

I like Hal Galper's statement that you first learn to play everything you hear, and then have to learn how to edit most of it out.

Great point!

Except, in this case, you are trying to be two instruments interweaving.

Like two hands (Bill Evans's?) at a piano - melody as the right hand, chord stabs in the manner of the left.

[destinytot]

flexatone!

Flexatone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[destinytot]

Great thread and tips here. I'm gravitating towards this style, too.

Punctuating lines with chords is now very firmly rooted in the tradition of our instrument and our idiom, and Earl Klugh's judicious use of it moves me down to my soul.

I definitely think the idea of forcing yourself to alternate chords and single notes in an arbitrary way is cool.

+1 for the freedom and spontaneity of jazz.

[pamosmusic]

+1 for the freedom and spontaneity of jazz.

Point taken. Okay so I should clarify that the things to which I refer are PRACTICE ideas!

[destinytot]

Point taken. Okay so I should clarify that the things to which I refer are PRACTICE ideas!

I think your tips and and advice are excellent - if you'll forgive the flattery, Peter, that comes as no surprise given the standard of your playing. (I delight in the subtle virtuosity of players who - without elitism - elevate their playing to Art.)

[ronjazz]

get the Lennie Breau book, it's a free download.

[pingu]

Ed Bickert... absolutely
Barney was great at this too

i think if you work up a viable chordmelody arr of the tune , you have the basis there
to explore ... the 'play a line, drop in a chord
or two, play a line' thing