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Maybe, we should discuss Jazz articulation.
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06-25-2026 02:58 PM
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Are you trying to start a war?
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I have Mike Moreno's My Music Masterclass videos. Well worth checking out.
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Starting with that unusual pick grip between thumb and second finger instead of thumb and index finger... Anyone here doing that? What are the pros and cons?
Originally Posted by GuyBoden
His picking motion looks like a combination of wrist and forearm - he doesn't appear to be moving the whole forearm, but it's not coming from just the hand and fingers.
I notice also that he articulates the pick in a way that almost seems like what some refer to as circular picking - which I know practically nothing about, but I know that Guy (OP) really likes. Again, seems like the actual picking motion is not coming from the fingers; they seem to be modifying the pick trajectory, not providing any force.
Any insights?
As for starting a war, I thought that his completely legato example at 0:33 was as lacking in dynamics or articulation (using the term as a horn player might: those marks that indicate staccato, marcato, legato, when to breathe, etc) as the strict alt picking example just preceding it at 0:23.
The subsequent examples that mix the two approaches do a good job of making his point, which is that mixing up the way you pick can give the line some shape and texture that you don't get from pure alt picking or pure legato picking.
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I definitely agree with what he's saying. Jazz is syncopated, so trying to play a line 'evenly' is your enemy. In order to get the line to animate you have to understand that it's an oscillation, not an even stream.
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I tend to think that trumpet players and sax players have such dynamic articulation often just because they work on articulation generally. So when their ear hears some specific thing, they have the technique to just kind of execute.
So I think working on articulation generally is really useful. Some things I’ve found useful applying to scales and arpeggios:
1. unusual picking patterns, usually derived from snare drumming. R L = D U
2. Accent patterns, especially across odd groupings (3 being the most useful, then 3+2 and 2+3, then 5) or on unusual parts of the beat (accenting in groups of four, but on the second eighth note of each grouping, for example).
3. Combinations of stacatto and legato
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what i like about what Pammo is suggesting here is that it's not just patterns of accents, it's using technique to create patterns of accents...
I was just thinking the other day in fact "man i'm getting some cool rhythmic accents since adding more down strokes"
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Yeah, but the technique isn't the point. The technique is used to make the sound, which is swing bounce, which is an upbeat emphasis oscillation.
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right, changing picking patterns rather than fighting nature and accenting all those up picked upbeats.
Now that I generally down pick every string change, I have natural increase in accented upbeats
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Yeah for sure but sort of like a sax player using DAHT rather than TAH rather than DOO can make the same note and rhythm value hit different. Originally Posted by Strat-itis
Down stroke and up stroke sound a little different so it does make sense to work on them like they do.
Like the sound is the point, but different physical motions make different sounds.
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This is stuff I think I try to avoid. It’s not really possible to avoid it fully, obviously. But like The Strat said … there’s a fine line between knowing that your technique will produce a certain result and allowing your results to be limited by the technique. Originally Posted by joe2758
Not sure where the line is but a great example is that I use Jack Zuckers Sheets of Sound book. It’s an excellent book but I don’t really play in that style, so it makes a lot of sense for me to ungroup his rhythm values. Like he has five note patterns, often played in quintuplets, three note per string scales in triplets, etc. I’ve gotten a lot out of trying to break up those groupings differently … 3nps in sixteenth notes, five note patterns in triplets, etc.
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I'm lost, just listen to Pammo lol
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I know but he's explaining it in the context of only guitar technique. That is misleading even though his playing did nail the feel. You need to know the primary vehicle for swing, then find techniques that get you there. Not oh I'll mix alternate picking, economy, and legato and that's a good jazz feel. Like wtf? Originally Posted by pamosmusic
That would be like if I said I'll mix alternate sticking, double strokes, and a paradiddle and get good jazz feel. Ok??
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me?
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i dont know if im being agreed with or used as an example of what is stupid
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I'm talking about the clip in the OP dang you.
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I think we're agreeing. Having command of all the things your instrument does and using them for the sound you want rather than letting the tools you have dictate the sound you get. Originally Posted by Strat-itis
One little caveat to that is that technical idioysncrasies do sometimes lead to really cool sounds. Benson with the way he lines up the fingerboard to facilitate his picking, you can kind of tell a person who Benson picks even if you can't see their pick hand because there's just something about the lines. Christian points to Peter Bernstein with his pretty aggressively violin-style left hand and lack of pinkie and the way that facilitates a really interesting way of articulating that is very jazz and swings super hard. Of course, Wes and his whole thing.
Obviously we're talking about top shelf players there who do have command of all their tools, but that's just an interesting thing to note. These are guys who are good enough and swing hard enough that the way they play itself becomes a part of the definition of "swing." So it's a different thing than someone like me who just decides not to work through my weak spots and just kind of lets it be what it is, but still interesting to note.
On the Mike Moreno video. I've rented (or maybe owned?) that video in the past and it's over a half hour long. You're watching a teaser with all the splices and stuff. In context, he's saying what you're saying. Don't just pick everything because it's what you do or slur things where it's easy. Have a command of alternating, economy picking, and slurring to facilitate a dynamic articulation because you need that to play jazz.
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"Obviously we're talking about top shelf players there who do have command of all their tools, but that's just an interesting thing to note. These are guys who are good enough and swing hard enough that the way they play itself becomes a part of the definition of "swing." So it's a different thing than someone like me who just decides not to work through my weak spots and just kind of lets it be what it is, but still interesting to note."
ok wait so you ARE talking about me?
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Wait -- you're the ?joe2758? Originally Posted by joe2758
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yes and there were only 2,757 joes on the forum before me. But please, don't let me distract you. Carry on.
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I'm working on basic stuff, like accenting the end of phrases, accenting the highest note of a phrase. Precise note duration is something I've just started to work on seriously too.
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Completely incidentally I was watching this video, and he comments on this thread's exact topic and even mentions Moreno. Starts at 11:10
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Almost as renowned as Joe 90: Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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When I said "accenting the highest note of a phrase."
This is a short example of what I mean:
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0:56 'Don't even think about it in pitches, just think about it in rhythm, like a drummer'.
That's how I aspire to do it - trying to anyway - as a foundation on which I can build.
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